NOM

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:50 pmNo one expects Salt Lake City to save Houston from a flood.

I know, right? I mean, it would take a prophet who speaks directly to God to know how best to save Houston.

Wait...

Hmm, I should have read through this thread before starting my own about overreacting.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:50 pm Meeting houses are not staffed facilities. It is a little unrealistic to expect the church to roll out the welcome mat as a shelter when it's run by people with their own lives to live.

Regarding "prayers" for the temple. OK, yes in our eyes it can be a bit silly to pray to save a building, but the Faithful LDS community, it's a big deal. they lost their house of worship. Even if we see it differently, it is a big deal to them. People were married there, people have lots of memories there. Mocking the faithful for "prayers to save the temple" is unkind. Now, if we want to discuss the effectiveness of prayers, that's another matter. But criticism of this is simply kicking them when they were down. They are human doing the best they can.

I think it is unreasonable to expect the Mormon church to be the backbone of the effort. Like Korihor said, the people who would run this sort of effort are busy having their own homes flooded. If the bishop left his home for his wife to deal with as he went out to try to open the chapel we would jump all over him for being to brainwashed to save his own home and help his wife.

Sometimes they just cant win with us. Most of the time the criticism is valid, sometimes its not.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:03 pm The church can and does do a lot of good in situations like this, and I did see a photo yesterday of a group in "helping hands" vests, so they've already begun to organize. If they're able to get organized enough to make sure their volunteers can be identified with vests, why can't they get organized enough to offer up some of their real-estate holdings as shelters? I'd guess that the Red Cross has a bit of an idea how to do it, and could get a chapel up and running as a shelter just as quickly as they could a school building, with the help of a few helping hands yellow vest people of course.

I have no idea what the logistics would be for that sort of thing so maybe I'm just an angry apostate, complaining out of my Fluff...

I think thats a valid point and I hate the vests too, but it is an evolving situation. I think we are quick to criticize the church not recognizing that they are a cumbersome patriarchy, but then we turn around and express outrage that they are a cumbersome patriarchy who is not responding fast enough? Not that I am singling you out, it just seems like the mormonstories facebook group and reddit talk out of both sides of their mouth sometimes worse than the church.

Thank goodness Elder Holland has given us a way to explain away these little detours. God told them to build it with the wrong materials so that after it failed they could be certain that a different material would be the right choice. And think of the tithing blessings the members will reap from having to pay for it twice!

Korihor wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:22 pm The Houston Temple President asks the members to pray to stop the flood.

Soooo, Was Jesus preoccupied and didn't realize there was a giant hurricane bearing down on Houston and didn't know his house was going to flood?

Did they not pray hard/loud enough to deliver the message?

Can God part the Red Sea but not stop 3' of flood waters around his house?

Why can't God step in and help out when it matters most?

Well the problem isn't just regular Satan this time. In Texas, they have to deal with the Super Devil and his Pandora's jar of marmalade.

Anon70 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:26 pm I felt sick and sad that they didn't ask for prayers for all the PEOPLE affected by the floods. But, sure, whatever, let's pray for the mega million dollar temple...that's what Jesus would want.

Yes, the Church is sending aid, credit where credit is due. But it was ridiculous for the temple president to ask people to pray for the temple at a time when people were losing their homes, possessions, and even lives. Some of the people affected didn't have much to begin with, but the Church has plenty of money to rebuild the temple. Heck, they could build 100 temples in Houston and not even feel it.

Sure the temple means a lot to some members - but the Church has plenty of money to repair it. Save your prayers, concern, and efforts for the poor in Houston who don't have a gazillion dollars to rebuild with.

This image of the residents of the La Vita Bella Nursing Home in
Dickinson Texas shows the importance of having an emergency plan.
It is unknown if these elders were prepared with their 72-hour kits
and supply of dried beans.

Other churches are also led by people who have their own lives, own families, and own homes, and they step up to the plate every time there's a crisis. The difference is that they are used to housing people during emergencies and they have volunteer members who pitch in, and if someone's home has been flooded (or whatever), other hands are there to keep a shelter running.

The LDS church has huge numbers of people who truly want to help and serve, but it lacks programming and a culture that allows local congregations to mobilize independently (by providing help in their own chapels) when something happens. They do put out a call for people to volunteer through other organizations (such as the Red Cross), and that helps members feel they are involved. Many local leaders are not empowered (or do not feel empowered) to create ongoing programming for community service. So it's only natural that when a huge disaster hits, the LDS efforts can seem scattered, or delayed a bit. But the hearts of the members are in the right place.

If the church had a mentality of community service, and if tithing money was used at local levels to support those programs, you'd see some dramatic changes in what could happen during times such as this storm.

As for prayers for the temple, I think it would have been nice if the temple president framed that request in a prayer for all people. I don't know of any other prayer requests for "buildings" by other organizations, other than maybe some prayers that the chemical plant now in crisis doesn't completely blow up.

It's understandable that devout members would pray for the temple, because they're conditioned to turn all attention to those buildings (you grow up with the goal of "going there" someday, and you're supposed to be married there, etc.). This highlights the contrast between the church and other religions.The sacredness of marriage would be the primary focus, not the goal of being married in a specific building that requires a huge ticket price. I don't fault members for their prayers for the temple, because they're touched by what is happening and those are sincere prayers. I do fault the church for putting its emphasis on buildings and men.

nibbler wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:53 pm

Culper Jr. wrote: ↑Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:30 pm Unless the doors are hermetically sealed, that $17,000 rug is wet.

Tight like unto a dish.

Here is how it will eventually play out. LDS Inc. will shell out the money for rug and repairs. And then they will do a HUGE rededication service. They will have temple open houses for weeks-piggy backing on the spirit of rebuilding that will probably come to Houston with in the upcoming months. They will share faith promoting story after story about the flood. And the missionaries might end up baptizing a few people. Then all the TBMs can say "See, Heavenly Father let the Temple flood so we could share the gospel and get converts."

MoPag wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:44 am Here is how it will eventually play out. LDS Inc. will shell out the money for rug and repairs. And then they will do a HUGE rededication service. They will have temple open houses for weeks-piggy backing on the spirit of rebuilding that will probably come to Houston with in the upcoming months. They will share faith promoting story after story about the flood. And the missionaries might end up baptizing a few people. Then all the TBMs can say "See, Heavenly Father let the Temple flood so we could share the gospel and get converts."

Yes, this might legitimately happen. Let's add up all the cost of repair and restoration on the temple. Then add in all costs associated with rededicating the temple which should at least include travel costs and security for the First Presidency. Add in the costs of any cultural celebration the takes over the lives of a thousand youth in the temple district. Possibly add in the costs of a thousand hours of volunteer work through all this process.

Calculate that grand total and divide that by the number of convert baptisms that result from this endeavor. That will be a little closer to the cost to acquire one single baptism in the church today.

I will grant that the cost of temple repair and restoration would have been incurred whether or not a cultural celebration happened. I'm glad that I don't work for any insurance carrier that is now on the hook for a billion dollars in damages. Still, the story of "new baptisms from Houston temple flood damage" is the best possible spin to put on this incident. The modern definition of a miracle becomes thinner by each passing year and each new incident.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:06 pm

MoPag wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:44 am Here is how it will eventually play out. LDS Inc. will shell out the money for rug and repairs. And then they will do a HUGE rededication service. They will have temple open houses for weeks-piggy backing on the spirit of rebuilding that will probably come to Houston with in the upcoming months. They will share faith promoting story after story about the flood. And the missionaries might end up baptizing a few people. Then all the TBMs can say "See, Heavenly Father let the Temple flood so we could share the gospel and get converts."

Yes, this might legitimately happen. Let's add up all the cost of repair and restoration on the temple. Then add in all costs associated with rededicating the temple which should at least include travel costs and security for the First Presidency. Add in the costs of any cultural celebration the takes over the lives of a thousand youth in the temple district. Possibly add in the costs of a thousand hours of volunteer work through all this process.

Calculate that grand total and divide that by the number of convert baptisms that result from this endeavor. That will be a little closer to the cost to acquire one single baptism in the church today.

I will grant that the cost of temple repair and restoration would have been incurred whether or not a cultural celebration happened. I'm glad that I don't work for any insurance carrier that is now on the hook for a billion dollars in damages. Still, the story of "new baptisms from Houston temple flood damage" is the best possible spin to put on this incident. The modern definition of a miracle becomes thinner by each passing year and each new incident.

Don't forget: LDS-Inc. will also "suggest" that members pay a few extra $$$ to help cover the cost of the damages to the Houston temple. (Just like when the temple in Samoa was damaged by fire.) Those extra $$$ are of course in addition to the normal 10% tithe, and other offerings already being paid. (You can always give more, don't ya know?)

Because, that's not what tithing is for.. Or is it? The vast majority of members will NEVER know, because LDS-Inc. is dishonest about what they do with their funds.

Corsair wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:06 pm

MoPag wrote: ↑Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:44 am Here is how it will eventually play out. LDS Inc. will shell out the money for rug and repairs. And then they will do a HUGE rededication service. They will have temple open houses for weeks-piggy backing on the spirit of rebuilding that will probably come to Houston with in the upcoming months. They will share faith promoting story after story about the flood. And the missionaries might end up baptizing a few people. Then all the TBMs can say "See, Heavenly Father let the Temple flood so we could share the gospel and get converts."

Yes, this might legitimately happen. Let's add up all the cost of repair and restoration on the temple. Then add in all costs associated with rededicating the temple which should at least include travel costs and security for the First Presidency. Add in the costs of any cultural celebration the takes over the lives of a thousand youth in the temple district. Possibly add in the costs of a thousand hours of volunteer work through all this process.

Calculate that grand total and divide that by the number of convert baptisms that result from this endeavor. That will be a little closer to the cost to acquire one single baptism in the church today.

I will grant that the cost of temple repair and restoration would have been incurred whether or not a cultural celebration happened. I'm glad that I don't work for any insurance carrier that is now on the hook for a billion dollars in damages. Still, the story of "new baptisms from Houston temple flood damage" is the best possible spin to put on this incident. The modern definition of a miracle becomes thinner by each passing year and each new incident.

Brutal Corsair, I love it.
Basic business economics indicates it's about 10x more expensive to acquire a new client than maintain an existing one. While the church is technically a business, it's still a church so it's measured by different metrics. That being said it's still expensive to get new members. Additionally, look at how many members it's losing which are not being replaced with a similar 'quality' of new members. The church will soon quickly fade away from using membership numbers as a defining statistic and rely on SQFT instead.

Each baptism has got to be $10k+ by now.