I did and I will be interested to read the minutes when they are released online next year.The Council of 50 talk actually sounds like it was interesting and worth attending, did you enjoy that one?
Education week report
Re: Education week report
The history of the church in 33 objects part 2
Vilate Kimball stocking tapestry. 1837. Died and coloured stockings from lots of women.
Phone Carter letter about leaving home. Later married w woodruff.
The Platte of the city of Zion. Showing were going to build 24 temples, specific temples for different priesthood offices. Shows that the church was planning to take over the original city. Led to conflict. Points out that the church has never been released from the commandment to build this city. Points out the grid system used in many towns in Utah. Joseph Smith taught that it was a revealed design.
Joseph Smith papyri
Purchased documents and mummies from michael Chandler
Can see document fragments today
Discovered glued to the back of a map in Chicago museum in 1967
Very small
Have raised questions about the Book of Abraham. Actual translations do not match the book of Abraham. They are thinking that the text of the book of Abraham was not on the fragments found but lost ones. Inspired translation also possible (same as john)
Ww Phelps described the papyrus used and does not match the fragments we have.
Like BoM we have to take the text itself as the best proof.
Book of Abraham closely mirrors apochrypha.
Kirtland temple stucco
Joseph said design given by God
Original temple not white. Slightly blue.
Sculpted the stucco to look like brick.
Didn't know how to build properly. These days can't have too many people on top floor as not structurally sound. Even in those days there were issues with the top floor.
Ppl did not grind up their fine China. Used old crockery and glass.
Original stucco removed in 1950 for structural repairs and replaced with white mortar. Underneath is stones from the river.
Wilford woodruff journal
Detailed journal keeper. Includes king Follett discourse, temple ordinances.
Was used in st George to make sure ordinances were accurate.
Arrington says 3 diaries v important
Wilford woodruff
Heber j Grant
Spencer w kimball
Ww thought that the devil sought to take his life more than other men because he was going to keep such good records.
Carthage jail
The pepperbox pistol. Pretty big gun. Joseph used to shoot around the door. Don't know if he killed or injured anyone. A different pistol is on display, about half the size. Think someone else smuggled the pistol in, unlikely to be able to get a big one in.
John Taylor's pocketwatch. Controversial. John Taylor always believed that he was falling out of the window when he was shot in the watch and thrown back in. Now they think he likely just fell forward and the watch hit the windowsill. Prob happened so fast that no-one really knows what happened. To the end of his days he made his grandkids touch the bullet that was still in his leg.
Death masks. Done within 24 hrs. Used when making new sculptures. Used to validate purported photos.
These objects remind us of the sacrifice that they made. A lot of people had canes made from their coffins or snipped off hair.
Hyrum Smith watch and sunglasses. Passed down from family member to family member as a memorial.
Phone Carter letter about leaving home. Later married w woodruff.
The Platte of the city of Zion. Showing were going to build 24 temples, specific temples for different priesthood offices. Shows that the church was planning to take over the original city. Led to conflict. Points out that the church has never been released from the commandment to build this city. Points out the grid system used in many towns in Utah. Joseph Smith taught that it was a revealed design.
Joseph Smith papyri
Purchased documents and mummies from michael Chandler
Can see document fragments today
Discovered glued to the back of a map in Chicago museum in 1967
Very small
Have raised questions about the Book of Abraham. Actual translations do not match the book of Abraham. They are thinking that the text of the book of Abraham was not on the fragments found but lost ones. Inspired translation also possible (same as john)
Ww Phelps described the papyrus used and does not match the fragments we have.
Like BoM we have to take the text itself as the best proof.
Book of Abraham closely mirrors apochrypha.
Kirtland temple stucco
Joseph said design given by God
Original temple not white. Slightly blue.
Sculpted the stucco to look like brick.
Didn't know how to build properly. These days can't have too many people on top floor as not structurally sound. Even in those days there were issues with the top floor.
Ppl did not grind up their fine China. Used old crockery and glass.
Original stucco removed in 1950 for structural repairs and replaced with white mortar. Underneath is stones from the river.
Wilford woodruff journal
Detailed journal keeper. Includes king Follett discourse, temple ordinances.
Was used in st George to make sure ordinances were accurate.
Arrington says 3 diaries v important
Wilford woodruff
Heber j Grant
Spencer w kimball
Ww thought that the devil sought to take his life more than other men because he was going to keep such good records.
Carthage jail
The pepperbox pistol. Pretty big gun. Joseph used to shoot around the door. Don't know if he killed or injured anyone. A different pistol is on display, about half the size. Think someone else smuggled the pistol in, unlikely to be able to get a big one in.
John Taylor's pocketwatch. Controversial. John Taylor always believed that he was falling out of the window when he was shot in the watch and thrown back in. Now they think he likely just fell forward and the watch hit the windowsill. Prob happened so fast that no-one really knows what happened. To the end of his days he made his grandkids touch the bullet that was still in his leg.
Death masks. Done within 24 hrs. Used when making new sculptures. Used to validate purported photos.
These objects remind us of the sacrifice that they made. A lot of people had canes made from their coffins or snipped off hair.
Hyrum Smith watch and sunglasses. Passed down from family member to family member as a memorial.
Joseph Smith's first vision: what the multiple accounts say and why
Joseph Smith's first vision: what the multiple accounts say and why
Steven c Harper
Best documented vision of God in historical record.
Memories are made out of cues and traces of the past but constructed in the present.
What is happening now shapes how we remember the past.
Rejects assertion that if you knew the different accounts you wouldn't believe in the vision
All of the verifiable objective facts about the 4 accounts are exactly the same.
Controversy comes from interpretation of the facts.
Fawn brodie called it a half remembered dream used when he needed to establish authority.
Unbelievers say the differences mean Joseph tried to deceive.
If someone lost faith for this reason it was not founded on truth, it was founded on hypothetical history.
Faith based on studying real history combined with pondering and prayer endures.
None of the historians who have studied the accounts best and in context have lost their faith. * thought this was an interesting claim
Thinking you know more than you know about the accounts is dangerous.
Quoted Stephen prothero that all lawyers expect differences in accounts.
Next section was demonstrating that the church hasn't hidden anything.
1971 Milton Blackman published a book about it
A year later written in the improvement era.
Also byu studies in 60s.
Church has published and publicised these accounts for 50 years
Now on josephsmithpapers.org
Send someone there if they tell you that the church is hiding stuff from you
Richard maynes gave devotional last year
If we don't know about it, it is because we are not paying attention
Tired of ppl blaming the church.
Googling is not a synonym for seeking.
He believes the changes are unconscious, not a deliberate attempt to package for different audiences. Relates to differences in gospels. Each writer has a different goal that shapes their narrative.
What if Joseph was so wounded by the Methodist minister that he didn't tell anyone else, then tried to write an autobiography later at age 26, still smarting from the rejection of being tarred and feathered?
1832 account is what memory scholars call strategic retrieval. Gets the memory from cues triggered by what is happening to him now.
Is commanded to write his history but he is not a writer. Writes every day for a week and then quits for a year. Also gets a letter book and writes 6 pages of biography.
Starts with a great deal of self consciousness. Feels inadequate due to lack of schooling.
Deliberately sitting down to write an autobiography means it contains different elements than if he tells the story spontaneously.
Tells the story to appease the Methodist minister and to emphasize the things that they share, Deemphasizes things that they don't have in common like multiple personages, issues with churches.
16th year of age
Only mentions one divine being. 2 of five secondary accounts say one being appeared first and then revealed another one. Thinks he is trying to say the same thing in this account when he says that the Lord opened the heavens and revealed the Lord.
Sounds a lot like a Methodist conversion account. Writes in a way that would not get him in trouble with the Methodists.
SH theory is that he is not satisfied with this account because he does not share it with anyone. Was not seen again until the 1850s and then left on a shelf in the church archives until the 1960s.
1835. What if Joseph at age 29 was not trying to write a biography but was conversing with a curious visitor at a low point of his life. He is just talking and his scribe is writing it down. This is spontaneous retrieval.
He is telling a visitor about the coming forth of the book of Mormon.
Tells the opposition part that was not in the earlier account. 2 personages.
Inserted after the fact: saw many angels, said he was 14.
What if Joseph at age 33 started writing autobiography after being driven by Ohio by enemies. Then jailed after writing a few pages, then started again months later after escaping Missouri. Ie writing after the worst year of his life. Result is 1838 account. Again strategic retrieval.
Sounds defiant angry and upset. Account is full of words like persecution. Preparing to petition Congress for redress.
This is the grown up prophet not the timid 26 year old.
What if he looked at this history a year or two later in a peaceful setting in nauvoo, surrounded by thousands of Saints, temple on the way.
You revise. 1841 Starts with facts, where he was born etc. Factual memory.
Interpretive memory - how it felt, how it seemed.
Now 18 years later he has a lot of experience to interpret what happened.
We know not only how he experienced the vision at the time, but how he experienced it over time.
Church historians only got access to this last account in 2009. Was in the FP possession along with Edward partridge papers.
What if at age 36 he got a letter from a newspaper asking him for his own story.
Account is missing defiant tone.
Times and seasons 1 March 1842.
Republished a year later by a Philadelphia historian in his book.
Factual and historical.
He simply tells his story as he remembers and experiences it over time. It defied description, we have only a sliver of the story.
Steven c Harper
Best documented vision of God in historical record.
Memories are made out of cues and traces of the past but constructed in the present.
What is happening now shapes how we remember the past.
Rejects assertion that if you knew the different accounts you wouldn't believe in the vision
All of the verifiable objective facts about the 4 accounts are exactly the same.
Controversy comes from interpretation of the facts.
Fawn brodie called it a half remembered dream used when he needed to establish authority.
Unbelievers say the differences mean Joseph tried to deceive.
If someone lost faith for this reason it was not founded on truth, it was founded on hypothetical history.
Faith based on studying real history combined with pondering and prayer endures.
None of the historians who have studied the accounts best and in context have lost their faith. * thought this was an interesting claim
Thinking you know more than you know about the accounts is dangerous.
Quoted Stephen prothero that all lawyers expect differences in accounts.
Next section was demonstrating that the church hasn't hidden anything.
1971 Milton Blackman published a book about it
A year later written in the improvement era.
Also byu studies in 60s.
Church has published and publicised these accounts for 50 years
Now on josephsmithpapers.org
Send someone there if they tell you that the church is hiding stuff from you
Richard maynes gave devotional last year
If we don't know about it, it is because we are not paying attention
Tired of ppl blaming the church.
Googling is not a synonym for seeking.
He believes the changes are unconscious, not a deliberate attempt to package for different audiences. Relates to differences in gospels. Each writer has a different goal that shapes their narrative.
What if Joseph was so wounded by the Methodist minister that he didn't tell anyone else, then tried to write an autobiography later at age 26, still smarting from the rejection of being tarred and feathered?
1832 account is what memory scholars call strategic retrieval. Gets the memory from cues triggered by what is happening to him now.
Is commanded to write his history but he is not a writer. Writes every day for a week and then quits for a year. Also gets a letter book and writes 6 pages of biography.
Starts with a great deal of self consciousness. Feels inadequate due to lack of schooling.
Deliberately sitting down to write an autobiography means it contains different elements than if he tells the story spontaneously.
Tells the story to appease the Methodist minister and to emphasize the things that they share, Deemphasizes things that they don't have in common like multiple personages, issues with churches.
16th year of age
Only mentions one divine being. 2 of five secondary accounts say one being appeared first and then revealed another one. Thinks he is trying to say the same thing in this account when he says that the Lord opened the heavens and revealed the Lord.
Sounds a lot like a Methodist conversion account. Writes in a way that would not get him in trouble with the Methodists.
SH theory is that he is not satisfied with this account because he does not share it with anyone. Was not seen again until the 1850s and then left on a shelf in the church archives until the 1960s.
1835. What if Joseph at age 29 was not trying to write a biography but was conversing with a curious visitor at a low point of his life. He is just talking and his scribe is writing it down. This is spontaneous retrieval.
He is telling a visitor about the coming forth of the book of Mormon.
Tells the opposition part that was not in the earlier account. 2 personages.
Inserted after the fact: saw many angels, said he was 14.
What if Joseph at age 33 started writing autobiography after being driven by Ohio by enemies. Then jailed after writing a few pages, then started again months later after escaping Missouri. Ie writing after the worst year of his life. Result is 1838 account. Again strategic retrieval.
Sounds defiant angry and upset. Account is full of words like persecution. Preparing to petition Congress for redress.
This is the grown up prophet not the timid 26 year old.
What if he looked at this history a year or two later in a peaceful setting in nauvoo, surrounded by thousands of Saints, temple on the way.
You revise. 1841 Starts with facts, where he was born etc. Factual memory.
Interpretive memory - how it felt, how it seemed.
Now 18 years later he has a lot of experience to interpret what happened.
We know not only how he experienced the vision at the time, but how he experienced it over time.
Church historians only got access to this last account in 2009. Was in the FP possession along with Edward partridge papers.
What if at age 36 he got a letter from a newspaper asking him for his own story.
Account is missing defiant tone.
Times and seasons 1 March 1842.
Republished a year later by a Philadelphia historian in his book.
Factual and historical.
He simply tells his story as he remembers and experiences it over time. It defied description, we have only a sliver of the story.
Glorious mother eve
Glorious mother eve
Susan Easton black
Only woman that Joseph saw in vision
Brigham said eve had a glorious influence over Adam
Joseph f Smith saw our glorious mother eve.
Nelson we are all blessed by the courage of mother eve. She did what had to be done.
Holland: thanks eve for fulfilling crucial role i fulfilling the purposes of eternity.
How prophets and apostles have viewed eve is in contrast to philosophers. Idea of original sin and eve and her daughters cursed.
Eden narrative
Not a prominent theme in the bible or for Jewish scholars. Viewed as secondary. In our church it is primary.
Paul mentions in new testament and say eve was deceived and was in transgression.
Other cultures talk about eve.
Egyptians, Syrians Greeks, hebrews
First book of Adam and eve - Egyptian. Tree common to all accounts. They leave the garden of Eden and go and live in the cave of treasures. Their daughter kills able.
Also in Quran.
Extra Eden narratives.
Paradise lost - Milton.
4 accounts in lds.
Genesis
Book of Moses
Book of abraham
Temple - Said she can't talk about this one.
Book of Abraham only in standard works 1980?
Creation. Period 6. Adam created. Known as michael in preexistence and helped create earth. Also led forces against Lucifer. Given dominion over the earth. Eve given as help meet.
Made me think about why Adam has this huge legend behind him with his angel name etc but about eves background- nothing.
Trees
Tree of life mentioned in genesis, proverbs and revelations. Partake of fruit and love forever. Most typical representation is menorah. Kings sceptre represents a branch of the tree of life.
Tree of the knowledge of good and evil
Eve made a pretty important decision without consulting Adam.
First question in the world was a questioning of authority
Adam dies at 930, within the day that he ate the fruit, if a day is 1000 years.
Immediate consequence was eyes were uncovered, knew bodies were uncovered. Atonement means covering.
What is the enmity between serpent and woman.
Eve is not cursed. Sorrow multiplied and also thy conception. Pain of childbirth is swallowed up in joy.
The phrase he shall rule over thee. One Hebrew account says he will rule with thee.
Adam not cursed either. Ground is cursed to make his life hard. Physical death.
Must have been despair at this time at being cast out. But there is hope.
Adam refers to his wife as woman until after the judgement scene, then calls her eve. Anticipation of hope comes in eves name meaning, mother of all living.
Mark twain said - "whereever she was, there was paradise".
Seth looked just like his father. Joseph Smith said Alvin was the most handsome man he has seen besides Seth.
Eve then disappears from the record.
Daniel 7:10 says thousands will stand before Adam. Will eve be there? Was she there with Jim fighting the battles in the preexistence? She anticipates that there will come a time when we will see her.
Susan Easton black
Only woman that Joseph saw in vision
Brigham said eve had a glorious influence over Adam
Joseph f Smith saw our glorious mother eve.
Nelson we are all blessed by the courage of mother eve. She did what had to be done.
Holland: thanks eve for fulfilling crucial role i fulfilling the purposes of eternity.
How prophets and apostles have viewed eve is in contrast to philosophers. Idea of original sin and eve and her daughters cursed.
Eden narrative
Not a prominent theme in the bible or for Jewish scholars. Viewed as secondary. In our church it is primary.
Paul mentions in new testament and say eve was deceived and was in transgression.
Other cultures talk about eve.
Egyptians, Syrians Greeks, hebrews
First book of Adam and eve - Egyptian. Tree common to all accounts. They leave the garden of Eden and go and live in the cave of treasures. Their daughter kills able.
Also in Quran.
Extra Eden narratives.
Paradise lost - Milton.
4 accounts in lds.
Genesis
Book of Moses
Book of abraham
Temple - Said she can't talk about this one.
Book of Abraham only in standard works 1980?
Creation. Period 6. Adam created. Known as michael in preexistence and helped create earth. Also led forces against Lucifer. Given dominion over the earth. Eve given as help meet.
Made me think about why Adam has this huge legend behind him with his angel name etc but about eves background- nothing.
Trees
Tree of life mentioned in genesis, proverbs and revelations. Partake of fruit and love forever. Most typical representation is menorah. Kings sceptre represents a branch of the tree of life.
Tree of the knowledge of good and evil
Eve made a pretty important decision without consulting Adam.
First question in the world was a questioning of authority
Adam dies at 930, within the day that he ate the fruit, if a day is 1000 years.
Immediate consequence was eyes were uncovered, knew bodies were uncovered. Atonement means covering.
What is the enmity between serpent and woman.
Eve is not cursed. Sorrow multiplied and also thy conception. Pain of childbirth is swallowed up in joy.
The phrase he shall rule over thee. One Hebrew account says he will rule with thee.
Adam not cursed either. Ground is cursed to make his life hard. Physical death.
Must have been despair at this time at being cast out. But there is hope.
Adam refers to his wife as woman until after the judgement scene, then calls her eve. Anticipation of hope comes in eves name meaning, mother of all living.
Mark twain said - "whereever she was, there was paradise".
Seth looked just like his father. Joseph Smith said Alvin was the most handsome man he has seen besides Seth.
Eve then disappears from the record.
Daniel 7:10 says thousands will stand before Adam. Will eve be there? Was she there with Jim fighting the battles in the preexistence? She anticipates that there will come a time when we will see her.
The rise of temple consciousness 1846-1870
The rise of temple consciousness 1846-1870
Richard e Bennett
Asked us to be careful of note taking with a sensitive subject.
Working on a book to be published next year with permission of church - the wisest course
Kirtland temple was more than preliminary. It was foundational.
We were building temples before we built chapels.
Rooted our thinking on the significance of temples.
Even though the initial ordinances, washings and annointings were preliminary they were also foundational.
There was a temple that was not build in far west. A lot of brethren met there before going on their missions and were set apart. Read men with a mission by Ron esplin about the mission of the 12. Also in 1838 the church was not making much money. How to finance future temples was a far west legacy. Section 19 and 20. Section 24. Joseph told strength not in temporal affairs. Others managed that. Church still needs those kinds of people today.
Nauvoo
- Baptisms for the dead approx 15k in this time
- endowments for the living in sep 1842 with nine men. Later others. Emma first woman in 1843. Read new book called relief society minutes. See connection between rs and increasingly morality of Saints and preparing them for temple work. No endowments for the dead in nauvoo.
- dealings for living and dead.
All of these ordinances started outside of the temple.
Brigham young gets a lot of criticism these days. But he loves him.
Really cared for his children. Recommended dean Jesse letters of brigham young
Loyal to Joseph
Nickname was the lion of the Lord. Powerful man. Even members of 12 didn't particularly like him. Would chastise ppl in public.
Is Joseph started the church, Brigham saved it. Particularly cared about widows and orphans. Saviour of temple work in the wilderness.
Talked about 2nd annointings. Highly prized and sacred. An external confirmation of an internal spiritual witness. Particularly treasured in light of the coming trek. Not as essential to salvation as the others. Often given for comfort and hope. The meaning of the temple took on a somewhat different purpose than Joseph had conceived. Temple became preparer , fortifier, and guarantor in light of the pending ordinances. 2nd annointings not saving ordinances but a great blessing.
Emma Smith stayed behind. Married again after 3 years. Her son Joseph Smith 3rd eventually president of reorganised church. Opposed plural marriage. Believe nauvoo temple never finished and therefore denied blessings by the Lord.
Orson Hyde stayed behind to dedicated the temple, said they were saved by the skin of their teeth. 3 trustees left to make sure no one stole it. BY Came close to selling it to the Catholics for 100,000. Not interested in the past, only the future. Sold to a latter day saint for 1 dollar, eventually destroyed by cyclone and fire.
Lyman eight went to Texas. Did temple ordinances in a house that Brigham young said were not valid.
Same with alpheus Cutler.
James strang. Letter claiming he is the president of the church. Martin Harris and 2500 others followed him. Went to Wisconsin. Finds plates. Translates them, book of the law of the Lord. Killed by his own people eventually.
Some people upset that community of Christ charges $4. Says uchtdorf went through and gave them 50 and thanked them for doing such a good job of maintaining it.
Winter quarters omaha 1846-1848. Mudhole. Were only supposed to be there for 6 weeks.
BY negotiated with govt to supply 500 men as soldiers if they would pay the men and let them settle on Indian land next to the river which became winter quarters.
Did baptisms in Missouri river. Wilford woodruff started it.
Willard Richards octagon. Octagon had a spiritual meaning in American architecture. Called it Richards potato hut. Also served as hospital as he was a herbal Dr. Also was post office. Also sealing house. Willard Richards under Brigham young (who is not president yet) had permission to perform sealings. People who had loved ones dying pleaded for ordinances.
Brigham listened to the Lord with one ear and to the people with another.
I think he said there were 22 wards. Winter quarters changed the history of the church.
Law of adoption
At the time not sealed to our ancestors.
Unclear in their minds who we should be sealed to. Didn't make sense to seal to parents who did not approve of church. Wanted to be sealed to the priesthood so they were sealed to leadership of the church, especially ppl like Joseph.
Safety and security was in being adopted into a family through this ordinance.
John d Lee was adopted spiritually into Brigham youngs family. Exodus then happened by family group, meaning adopted family groups. Served a spiritual and social purpose during this exodus era. Also cause social problems - competitive. Stopped in Wilford woodruff time.
BY was performing sealings all across the plains. The people both feared and loved Brigham young.
Baptisms for the dead stopped for 22 years. Emphasis was on rebaptisms for the living. Brigham called covenant baptisms. To do with having a fresh start. Approx 3000 rebaptisms in 5 years up to 1852. Baptism for the dead starts again in 1869. Rs recommences in 67. A lot of things seemed to start back up around the time the railroad came through.
For a while they were just trying to survive, and once settled they could get back to what they should be doing.
Endowments
First was Addison Pratt in San Pete before he went on his mission. 1849.
Then next done in council house in slc. Also used for legislature and university. Upper room for temple work. Until 1854. Last person was Joseph f Smith, 15 years old, on his way to his mission to Hawaii. Total 2222 living endowments.
Copy in quote took a photo of from BY.
We work one day a week...
Endowment house 1854-1889
Sealings
Majority of sealings done in council house but well over 400 done in private homes. BY authorised men to go out and take the temple work to the people.
Richard e Bennett
Asked us to be careful of note taking with a sensitive subject.
Working on a book to be published next year with permission of church - the wisest course
Kirtland temple was more than preliminary. It was foundational.
We were building temples before we built chapels.
Rooted our thinking on the significance of temples.
Even though the initial ordinances, washings and annointings were preliminary they were also foundational.
There was a temple that was not build in far west. A lot of brethren met there before going on their missions and were set apart. Read men with a mission by Ron esplin about the mission of the 12. Also in 1838 the church was not making much money. How to finance future temples was a far west legacy. Section 19 and 20. Section 24. Joseph told strength not in temporal affairs. Others managed that. Church still needs those kinds of people today.
Nauvoo
- Baptisms for the dead approx 15k in this time
- endowments for the living in sep 1842 with nine men. Later others. Emma first woman in 1843. Read new book called relief society minutes. See connection between rs and increasingly morality of Saints and preparing them for temple work. No endowments for the dead in nauvoo.
- dealings for living and dead.
All of these ordinances started outside of the temple.
Brigham young gets a lot of criticism these days. But he loves him.
Really cared for his children. Recommended dean Jesse letters of brigham young
Loyal to Joseph
Nickname was the lion of the Lord. Powerful man. Even members of 12 didn't particularly like him. Would chastise ppl in public.
Is Joseph started the church, Brigham saved it. Particularly cared about widows and orphans. Saviour of temple work in the wilderness.
Talked about 2nd annointings. Highly prized and sacred. An external confirmation of an internal spiritual witness. Particularly treasured in light of the coming trek. Not as essential to salvation as the others. Often given for comfort and hope. The meaning of the temple took on a somewhat different purpose than Joseph had conceived. Temple became preparer , fortifier, and guarantor in light of the pending ordinances. 2nd annointings not saving ordinances but a great blessing.
Emma Smith stayed behind. Married again after 3 years. Her son Joseph Smith 3rd eventually president of reorganised church. Opposed plural marriage. Believe nauvoo temple never finished and therefore denied blessings by the Lord.
Orson Hyde stayed behind to dedicated the temple, said they were saved by the skin of their teeth. 3 trustees left to make sure no one stole it. BY Came close to selling it to the Catholics for 100,000. Not interested in the past, only the future. Sold to a latter day saint for 1 dollar, eventually destroyed by cyclone and fire.
Lyman eight went to Texas. Did temple ordinances in a house that Brigham young said were not valid.
Same with alpheus Cutler.
James strang. Letter claiming he is the president of the church. Martin Harris and 2500 others followed him. Went to Wisconsin. Finds plates. Translates them, book of the law of the Lord. Killed by his own people eventually.
Some people upset that community of Christ charges $4. Says uchtdorf went through and gave them 50 and thanked them for doing such a good job of maintaining it.
Winter quarters omaha 1846-1848. Mudhole. Were only supposed to be there for 6 weeks.
BY negotiated with govt to supply 500 men as soldiers if they would pay the men and let them settle on Indian land next to the river which became winter quarters.
Did baptisms in Missouri river. Wilford woodruff started it.
Willard Richards octagon. Octagon had a spiritual meaning in American architecture. Called it Richards potato hut. Also served as hospital as he was a herbal Dr. Also was post office. Also sealing house. Willard Richards under Brigham young (who is not president yet) had permission to perform sealings. People who had loved ones dying pleaded for ordinances.
Brigham listened to the Lord with one ear and to the people with another.
I think he said there were 22 wards. Winter quarters changed the history of the church.
Law of adoption
At the time not sealed to our ancestors.
Unclear in their minds who we should be sealed to. Didn't make sense to seal to parents who did not approve of church. Wanted to be sealed to the priesthood so they were sealed to leadership of the church, especially ppl like Joseph.
Safety and security was in being adopted into a family through this ordinance.
John d Lee was adopted spiritually into Brigham youngs family. Exodus then happened by family group, meaning adopted family groups. Served a spiritual and social purpose during this exodus era. Also cause social problems - competitive. Stopped in Wilford woodruff time.
BY was performing sealings all across the plains. The people both feared and loved Brigham young.
Baptisms for the dead stopped for 22 years. Emphasis was on rebaptisms for the living. Brigham called covenant baptisms. To do with having a fresh start. Approx 3000 rebaptisms in 5 years up to 1852. Baptism for the dead starts again in 1869. Rs recommences in 67. A lot of things seemed to start back up around the time the railroad came through.
For a while they were just trying to survive, and once settled they could get back to what they should be doing.
Endowments
First was Addison Pratt in San Pete before he went on his mission. 1849.
Then next done in council house in slc. Also used for legislature and university. Upper room for temple work. Until 1854. Last person was Joseph f Smith, 15 years old, on his way to his mission to Hawaii. Total 2222 living endowments.
Copy in quote took a photo of from BY.
We work one day a week...
Endowment house 1854-1889
Sealings
Majority of sealings done in council house but well over 400 done in private homes. BY authorised men to go out and take the temple work to the people.
How can we know brother Joseph today? Recollections by family, friends and foes
How can we know brother Joseph today? Recollections by family, friends and foes
Dr Keith a. Erekson, director of church history library
Very few of his records are in his own handwriting. 80% diaries done by scribes.
Only 29 letters in his handwriting.
His mother is best source of info about getting the plates.
He also didn't say much about the process of translation. Hyrum tried to get him to say more in front of a congregation but he stuck to the phrase by the gift and power of God.
They have a letter written the evening that Joseph was killed by Willard Richards and John Taylor.
How memories
Lucy Mack Smith- chief voice for family experience before he was known and had scribes.
Heber c Kimball
Brigham young
John Taylor- these 3 were close in his ministerial duties. They were with Joseph as certain problems were solved. John Taylor was also present at Joseph's death.
Eliza r snow- sealed to Joseph. Went on to be powerful influence in what Joseph taught, particularly through poems. Was his scribe for a while. Had an authority to know what he thought and taught.
All helped a new generation learn about Joseph.
Methods
Reminiscences
Art
Anniversaries
Monuments
Late 19th century, people who knew Joseph started to die. Prompted a crisis point where they knew information needed to be recorded.
Had an event 50 years after death for this who knew Joseph. 23 ppl turned up.
Joseph f Smith said we sometimes remember the ludicrous things more vividly than the important things. He was not a fan of the stories of Joseph wrestling and playing games etc.
Problems with memory
Errors of significance - overstate things etc
Errors of accuracy - easier to adjust for and research
General rules
Closer to date, more accurate
Closer to person, more accurate. Eyewitness. Records handwritten by the person, dated.
Think about disagreeing with siblings about how things happened in childhood.
Refrained from telling stories a long time past.
Joseph
Memorable person. Charismatic.
John chittister was so impressed with Joseph that he wrote a hymn about him
Lots of stories of daily interactions with Joseph
Did a lot of mediating and solving interpersonal conflicts.
Many memories of him weeping with people.
Letter from Joseph to Harvey Whitlock 1835. Communicating about Harvey returning to the church.
Lots of healing stories.
Luke Johnson said Joseph healed his mother.
Cast devils or evil spirits out of people.
Healed ppl from cholera
Prayed for wife of Samuel Smith's wife Mary and for the Dr Fredrick Williams.
As a speaker. Spoke often. 250 known occasions where he spoke formally. Records for about a fifth of them. A lot of people talked about the experience of listening to him. Joseph was not a very good speaker. Lorenzo snow said he was not a fluid speaker. Some ppl kind of let down. Converts said he was not unusually talented, did not look intelligent, bad speaker, imperfectly educated. Awkward but vehement speaker. Used too many words to express his ideas. Did not directly get to the point. 2 Nephi 3:17 prophesied this.
Early on he regularly deferred to rigdon and correct to speak.
Familiar colloquial language.
Biblical rhythms and imagery
Keen narrative sense.
Visual descriptions, often with natural phenomena - lightning, sun etc
Tremendous sense of joy and vitality. Laughed and cried in speeches.
Strong sense of mission
Inspired nature and power of his mission
William rollie convert. Knew he had not been taught of men.
Pratt said he Abounded in original eloquence peculiar to himself.
Spoke with great power and much assurance.
Convert said electrified his whole soul.
Prophecies made to people
Mary elizabeth Rollins lighter - prophesied that her husband would never join church
Edward Ruston - was told he would move to the Rocky mountains.
The life of Joseph Smith by George q cannon- recommended reading.
Death
If you lived then, the moment would be seared into your memory when you heard about his death. Ppl will talk about where they were. The distress they felt.
Some like Erastus snow, brigham young and others said they felt gloomy on that day but did not know until later that it was the day or his death.
Some reacted with art, poetry. E.g.. praise to the man ww phelps. Some words much harsher in the original version.
Some wanted tangible mementos. Emma gave Wilford woodruff a pair of gloves owned by Joseph.
The temporary coffins were cut up into 2 dozen walking canes and given to those close to the prophet.
Ppl kept locks of his hair. Sometimes turned up in art like cross stitch.
Two remembrances
Happened at a time when the generation that knew him were passing.
John Taylor gave a lengthy tribute. D&C 135. And longer account in Joseph Smith's history. His watch became a tangible reminder too. He was a writer and a singer and wrote a poem as tribute. 2 months later it was turned into a musical and performed in nauvoo. Wrote another poem later.
In the early times, no one could get up to bear testimony until those who knew Joseph and lived in nauvoo had gotten up. Called the old nauvooers.
C c a Christensen. Born Copenhagen 1831. Convert 1850. Immigrant 1857. Created a Mormon panorama of 23 paintings in the 1870s. Taller than a man. Five feature Joseph. We are missing the first one about the first vision. This painting inspired the words to the song oh how lovely was the morning.
One showing Joseph preaching to the lamanites
One inside carthage jail.
Last one is a scene outside the jail. Body of Joseph on the ground. Myth that one of the members was paralysed by a ray of light.
Dr Keith a. Erekson, director of church history library
Very few of his records are in his own handwriting. 80% diaries done by scribes.
Only 29 letters in his handwriting.
His mother is best source of info about getting the plates.
He also didn't say much about the process of translation. Hyrum tried to get him to say more in front of a congregation but he stuck to the phrase by the gift and power of God.
They have a letter written the evening that Joseph was killed by Willard Richards and John Taylor.
How memories
Lucy Mack Smith- chief voice for family experience before he was known and had scribes.
Heber c Kimball
Brigham young
John Taylor- these 3 were close in his ministerial duties. They were with Joseph as certain problems were solved. John Taylor was also present at Joseph's death.
Eliza r snow- sealed to Joseph. Went on to be powerful influence in what Joseph taught, particularly through poems. Was his scribe for a while. Had an authority to know what he thought and taught.
All helped a new generation learn about Joseph.
Methods
Reminiscences
Art
Anniversaries
Monuments
Late 19th century, people who knew Joseph started to die. Prompted a crisis point where they knew information needed to be recorded.
Had an event 50 years after death for this who knew Joseph. 23 ppl turned up.
Joseph f Smith said we sometimes remember the ludicrous things more vividly than the important things. He was not a fan of the stories of Joseph wrestling and playing games etc.
Problems with memory
Errors of significance - overstate things etc
Errors of accuracy - easier to adjust for and research
General rules
Closer to date, more accurate
Closer to person, more accurate. Eyewitness. Records handwritten by the person, dated.
Think about disagreeing with siblings about how things happened in childhood.
Refrained from telling stories a long time past.
Joseph
Memorable person. Charismatic.
John chittister was so impressed with Joseph that he wrote a hymn about him
Lots of stories of daily interactions with Joseph
Did a lot of mediating and solving interpersonal conflicts.
Many memories of him weeping with people.
Letter from Joseph to Harvey Whitlock 1835. Communicating about Harvey returning to the church.
Lots of healing stories.
Luke Johnson said Joseph healed his mother.
Cast devils or evil spirits out of people.
Healed ppl from cholera
Prayed for wife of Samuel Smith's wife Mary and for the Dr Fredrick Williams.
As a speaker. Spoke often. 250 known occasions where he spoke formally. Records for about a fifth of them. A lot of people talked about the experience of listening to him. Joseph was not a very good speaker. Lorenzo snow said he was not a fluid speaker. Some ppl kind of let down. Converts said he was not unusually talented, did not look intelligent, bad speaker, imperfectly educated. Awkward but vehement speaker. Used too many words to express his ideas. Did not directly get to the point. 2 Nephi 3:17 prophesied this.
Early on he regularly deferred to rigdon and correct to speak.
Familiar colloquial language.
Biblical rhythms and imagery
Keen narrative sense.
Visual descriptions, often with natural phenomena - lightning, sun etc
Tremendous sense of joy and vitality. Laughed and cried in speeches.
Strong sense of mission
Inspired nature and power of his mission
William rollie convert. Knew he had not been taught of men.
Pratt said he Abounded in original eloquence peculiar to himself.
Spoke with great power and much assurance.
Convert said electrified his whole soul.
Prophecies made to people
Mary elizabeth Rollins lighter - prophesied that her husband would never join church
Edward Ruston - was told he would move to the Rocky mountains.
The life of Joseph Smith by George q cannon- recommended reading.
Death
If you lived then, the moment would be seared into your memory when you heard about his death. Ppl will talk about where they were. The distress they felt.
Some like Erastus snow, brigham young and others said they felt gloomy on that day but did not know until later that it was the day or his death.
Some reacted with art, poetry. E.g.. praise to the man ww phelps. Some words much harsher in the original version.
Some wanted tangible mementos. Emma gave Wilford woodruff a pair of gloves owned by Joseph.
The temporary coffins were cut up into 2 dozen walking canes and given to those close to the prophet.
Ppl kept locks of his hair. Sometimes turned up in art like cross stitch.
Two remembrances
Happened at a time when the generation that knew him were passing.
John Taylor gave a lengthy tribute. D&C 135. And longer account in Joseph Smith's history. His watch became a tangible reminder too. He was a writer and a singer and wrote a poem as tribute. 2 months later it was turned into a musical and performed in nauvoo. Wrote another poem later.
In the early times, no one could get up to bear testimony until those who knew Joseph and lived in nauvoo had gotten up. Called the old nauvooers.
C c a Christensen. Born Copenhagen 1831. Convert 1850. Immigrant 1857. Created a Mormon panorama of 23 paintings in the 1870s. Taller than a man. Five feature Joseph. We are missing the first one about the first vision. This painting inspired the words to the song oh how lovely was the morning.
One showing Joseph preaching to the lamanites
One inside carthage jail.
Last one is a scene outside the jail. Body of Joseph on the ground. Myth that one of the members was paralysed by a ray of light.
The divine role of men and women
The divine role of men and women
Casey Griffiths and Barbara Gardiner
How to discuss gender roles and difficult issues:
* Use the proclamation to hold a direct discussion about roles
* Emphasize that both genders have equal value in God's eyes but are different from each other
* Be familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of both genders
Proclamation
Serve as equal partners
Fathers preside and provide protection
Mothers nurture children
Obligated to help one another as equal partners
Discussion re challenges men and women face in the church. This was actually quite interesting. After this I felt that the class kind of turned into an opinionated discussion without a lot of substance.
Different gifts, equal importance
Change made in 2010 to move ward responsibilities to ward council which includes women.
Men also having their roles denigrated.
Casey Griffiths and Barbara Gardiner
How to discuss gender roles and difficult issues:
* Use the proclamation to hold a direct discussion about roles
* Emphasize that both genders have equal value in God's eyes but are different from each other
* Be familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of both genders
Proclamation
Serve as equal partners
Fathers preside and provide protection
Mothers nurture children
Obligated to help one another as equal partners
Discussion re challenges men and women face in the church. This was actually quite interesting. After this I felt that the class kind of turned into an opinionated discussion without a lot of substance.
Different gifts, equal importance
Change made in 2010 to move ward responsibilities to ward council which includes women.
Men also having their roles denigrated.
Apostacy, politics, and lies: the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith
Apostacy, politics, and lies: the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith
Gerrit j dirkmaat
Late period of Joseph's life resulted in some profound doctrines
Guy named finch from England visited Joseph in nauvoo. Prepared to not be impressed. Reported he is a happy good natured person. Joseph invited him to share his views with the people.
Colesville. People join church a small number at a time. Eventually half the community joined. Changed economic, social and political dynamics. Happens in Ohio, Missouri and nauvoo.
Mormons were hated because they moved into towns in great numbers. Mad that people leaving other religions. Political anxiety. Mormons tended to vote in blocks for the candidate that best represented their interests. Spark that started the war in Missouri.
When they arrived in Illinois it was well known that they voted Democrat. This made the local govt more happy to Grant them a charter for nauvoo etc. But national democrats were not willing to do anything. Instead Joseph turns to Henry clay, Whig candidate. Famous quote saying he will never vote Democrat again and calling them the meanest lowest group in creation.
Joseph placed his trust in Henry clay. But wrote letters to every presidential candidate. Anyone that wrote back said their cause is just but they can do nothing. Joseph realises they will not find peace in the United States.
Declares himself a candidate for president because no candidate said they would help. Slavery was not a national platform at this time. Joseph's policy flyer started with a statement against slavery. Newspapers started calling him an abolitionist. Also advocated for prison reform.
Causes a political problem for the saints. Whig is the minority party in illinois. Abe L was a Whig from Illinois. They were excited when they thought they had the Mormon vote to oust the democrats. Newspapers started printing favourable info about Joseph. After he became a candidate the Whigs were upset because they could no longer win and the newspapers turn on him.
At the same time, they start looking for somewhere else to go. Have not been able to have their rights protected. Looked at Oregon, Texas, Mexico and California. Organises council of fifty to spearhead this effort and to organise the polticial kingdom of God on earth.
Fewer than 5000 whites living in California area, and none where present day Utah is.
Newspaper article by sharp said even those who used to be Mormon had to leave. Racialised Mormons and said half breeds also had to go.
William law ringleader of internal apostates who seek Joseph's assassination from within.
Previously wrote a hymn praising Josephs escape from enemies.
LAW becomes disaffected. Was a staunch Democrat. Had a problem with Joseph's more radical teachings. Idea that God was once like man, and man can become like God. Has issue with eternal marriage and plural marriage. Said law used polygamy as low hanging fruit in his beef against the church.
William was not sealed to his wife. Said possible law committed adultery earlier in his life and had not confessed.
Nauvoo expositor. Designed to expose Mormonism. Polygamy only happening in secret. Law calls it spiritual wifery. Joseph didn't like that because Bennett had tried his own system and called it spiritual wifery. Said expositor made false accusations about the system of polygamy and that the church was embezzling tithing finds, and that the church is teaching heresy - plurality of Gods.
Nauvoo city charter allowed them to remove someone from town if they were libellous and a nuisance. City council pass a resolution to remove it. Nauvoo police force get the order to destroy the press. Ignites the anti Mormon sentiment.
Joseph brought up on charges of inciting a riot in nauvoo. Judge dismissed. Governed of Illinois intervened and said he had to be tried somewhere else as he could not be tried objectively locally. Writes to Joseph demanding that he surrender to carthage, the county seat. Mormons have been petitioning to move the county seat to nauvoo. Carthage people not happy about that.
Joseph and friends flee across the river. State militia head to nauvoo to collect Joseph.
Nauvoo people afraid the state militia will hurt them. Ppl ask Joseph to come back, so he does and surrenders.
When he gets to carthage, charged with inciting a riot, posts bail, then rearrested for treason. Said he ordered the nauvoo legion to destroy the press, offence that can't be bailed. Have lost all trust in the governor. Governed leaves to confiscate arms from nauvoo, leaving carthage grays to guard the jail, which is the group that hates the Mormons most.
1854 Willard Richards dies, and he was the historian. They realise John Taylor is the only one left who was there. Had him write an extremely detailed account.
He finished by reading a large portion of this account.
Gerrit j dirkmaat
Late period of Joseph's life resulted in some profound doctrines
Guy named finch from England visited Joseph in nauvoo. Prepared to not be impressed. Reported he is a happy good natured person. Joseph invited him to share his views with the people.
Colesville. People join church a small number at a time. Eventually half the community joined. Changed economic, social and political dynamics. Happens in Ohio, Missouri and nauvoo.
Mormons were hated because they moved into towns in great numbers. Mad that people leaving other religions. Political anxiety. Mormons tended to vote in blocks for the candidate that best represented their interests. Spark that started the war in Missouri.
When they arrived in Illinois it was well known that they voted Democrat. This made the local govt more happy to Grant them a charter for nauvoo etc. But national democrats were not willing to do anything. Instead Joseph turns to Henry clay, Whig candidate. Famous quote saying he will never vote Democrat again and calling them the meanest lowest group in creation.
Joseph placed his trust in Henry clay. But wrote letters to every presidential candidate. Anyone that wrote back said their cause is just but they can do nothing. Joseph realises they will not find peace in the United States.
Declares himself a candidate for president because no candidate said they would help. Slavery was not a national platform at this time. Joseph's policy flyer started with a statement against slavery. Newspapers started calling him an abolitionist. Also advocated for prison reform.
Causes a political problem for the saints. Whig is the minority party in illinois. Abe L was a Whig from Illinois. They were excited when they thought they had the Mormon vote to oust the democrats. Newspapers started printing favourable info about Joseph. After he became a candidate the Whigs were upset because they could no longer win and the newspapers turn on him.
At the same time, they start looking for somewhere else to go. Have not been able to have their rights protected. Looked at Oregon, Texas, Mexico and California. Organises council of fifty to spearhead this effort and to organise the polticial kingdom of God on earth.
Fewer than 5000 whites living in California area, and none where present day Utah is.
Newspaper article by sharp said even those who used to be Mormon had to leave. Racialised Mormons and said half breeds also had to go.
William law ringleader of internal apostates who seek Joseph's assassination from within.
Previously wrote a hymn praising Josephs escape from enemies.
LAW becomes disaffected. Was a staunch Democrat. Had a problem with Joseph's more radical teachings. Idea that God was once like man, and man can become like God. Has issue with eternal marriage and plural marriage. Said law used polygamy as low hanging fruit in his beef against the church.
William was not sealed to his wife. Said possible law committed adultery earlier in his life and had not confessed.
Nauvoo expositor. Designed to expose Mormonism. Polygamy only happening in secret. Law calls it spiritual wifery. Joseph didn't like that because Bennett had tried his own system and called it spiritual wifery. Said expositor made false accusations about the system of polygamy and that the church was embezzling tithing finds, and that the church is teaching heresy - plurality of Gods.
Nauvoo city charter allowed them to remove someone from town if they were libellous and a nuisance. City council pass a resolution to remove it. Nauvoo police force get the order to destroy the press. Ignites the anti Mormon sentiment.
Joseph brought up on charges of inciting a riot in nauvoo. Judge dismissed. Governed of Illinois intervened and said he had to be tried somewhere else as he could not be tried objectively locally. Writes to Joseph demanding that he surrender to carthage, the county seat. Mormons have been petitioning to move the county seat to nauvoo. Carthage people not happy about that.
Joseph and friends flee across the river. State militia head to nauvoo to collect Joseph.
Nauvoo people afraid the state militia will hurt them. Ppl ask Joseph to come back, so he does and surrenders.
When he gets to carthage, charged with inciting a riot, posts bail, then rearrested for treason. Said he ordered the nauvoo legion to destroy the press, offence that can't be bailed. Have lost all trust in the governor. Governed leaves to confiscate arms from nauvoo, leaving carthage grays to guard the jail, which is the group that hates the Mormons most.
1854 Willard Richards dies, and he was the historian. They realise John Taylor is the only one left who was there. Had him write an extremely detailed account.
He finished by reading a large portion of this account.
Re: Joseph Smith's seer stones
So... Seer stones have only been related to magical practices "since 1833, because of anti-mormons?
That's actually quite a hilarious redirection/explanation.
Anyone else ever hear this "hard to use" excuse? Isn't the real story that "Moroni" took the prehistoric nephite spectacles after the loss of the 116 pages to "punish" Joseph, and the interpreters were never returned?
I guess lies and obfuscation like this can keep the wool over some believer's eyes, but it won't take any true seeker more than a few minutes to find the lies...
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
IDKSAF -RubinHighlander
Gave up who I am for who you wanted me to be...
Re: Education week report
Seems like a week-long mental circle jerk to me.
Re: Education week report
Ha ha! Yes, very stimulating from an "outsider looking in" experiment. Some of this is fascinating Lost Girl. I spent a few minutes reading about the council of 50 minutes after you posted. Thanks for dropping your notes here and taking one for the team!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
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FiveFingerMnemonic
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Re: Education week report
Great report, thank you for taking the time to write these up!!!
Re: Education week report
Some of them, at least, give me the impression of standing firm, trying desperately to hold back the tide.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
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deacon blues
- Posts: 2083
- Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:37 am
Re: Education week report
wish I could could've been in the Gerritt Dirkmaat class to stand up for William Law. He uses the same tactics against the Laws that anti's use against Joseph.
God is Love. God is Truth. The greatest problem with organized religion is that the organization becomes god, rather than a means of serving God.
Re: Education week report
You all are going to love the one about why people leave.
I am starting to see a lot of overlap in content and ideas, particularly in the historical ones. I get the feeling that most of these guys are quite genuine but at the same time are leaving out a lot of the other side, which is only natural I suppose as they all work for the church.
I am currently undecided whether there is a genuine effort to be transparent and talk about the tricky stuff or whether it is a calculated game of providing just enough to make people feel like they are receiving important new information (along with the explanation) but without considering issues from all angles.
As someone who has a lot of questions and issues I felt a quite dismissive tone in the why people leave one. There were a lot of wry statements to which the audience provided the obligatory laughs.
I was astonished to hear actual mention of the second annointing in one class but felt it was not truly presented for it was.
Polygamy is mentioned on the side a lot but I have not heard it tackled head on yet.
There is a major focus on the seer stones and on normalizing and explaining their use.
I am starting to see a lot of overlap in content and ideas, particularly in the historical ones. I get the feeling that most of these guys are quite genuine but at the same time are leaving out a lot of the other side, which is only natural I suppose as they all work for the church.
I am currently undecided whether there is a genuine effort to be transparent and talk about the tricky stuff or whether it is a calculated game of providing just enough to make people feel like they are receiving important new information (along with the explanation) but without considering issues from all angles.
As someone who has a lot of questions and issues I felt a quite dismissive tone in the why people leave one. There were a lot of wry statements to which the audience provided the obligatory laughs.
I was astonished to hear actual mention of the second annointing in one class but felt it was not truly presented for it was.
Polygamy is mentioned on the side a lot but I have not heard it tackled head on yet.
There is a major focus on the seer stones and on normalizing and explaining their use.
Why people choose to leave
Why people choose to leave
Robert millett
1. People who formally resign or are excommunicated
Or 2. Inactive
Quote from uchtdorf we honour their right to worship the almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience.
Has spent a couple of years speaking with people who have chosen to disaffiliate and asked them what troubles them.
1. They weren't fellowshipped properly.
A Mission in South America baptised 2000 ppl. 10% retention rate.
Days of his youth they called it the kiddy dip. Baptised kids that they never saw again.
No point in doing missionary work unless we hold onto the fruits of that effort.
2. People feel they simply don't fit in.
May be single adults as part of a family church. Church represents to them all that they could not be. Childless couples. In some cases thoughtless members say stupid things.
Language or cultural barriers. What is the gospel and what is the culture. More challenging in some cultures than others.
3. They simply don't want to be members anymore.
Don't want to go to church anymore. Rising number of people that just don't want to do church anymore. Like in 1960s where people were boycotting universities, anti establishment feelings. Voting with their feet. Often takes place as they leave high school. Difficult transition. Someone given a church assignment that is too big for them. Time commitments. Tithes and offerings. Family conflict.
4. Unresolved doctrinal or historical questions. Along with sweet discoveries there are hazards. Blessing to have internet, curse to have the internet. People who believe everything they read. For the first time ppl are introduced to doctrinal ideas or historical matter that they knew nothing about. BY Adam God, priesthood restriction, book of Abraham, mountain meadows.
He said he asks people a series of questions:
Did you ever have a testimony of the truthfulness of the restored gospel?
When did you first begin to sense the work was true? Can you describe that occasion? What did it feel like? What thoughts accompanied those feelings? Wants them to remember what they felt.
What convinced you that the book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ?
How much of a factor in your spiritual conviction was your intellect?
What part of your testimony was solely dependent on facts and propositions?
When did you begin to feel that it was not true and what led you to that conclusion?
Have you earnestly prayed about this matter?
Has God revealed to you by the power of the holy spirit that all that you believed is not true?
Has never met a person where God told them the church is not true. Not unheard of but not common.
Are you now persuaded that your marriage in the temple is meaningless and that you are no longer sealed to your wife and children?
What will the effect of this decision of yours have for your family? Affects so many facets of our lives.
To what extent has your recent period of questioning and doubt required you to go back and reinterpret your past? What I felt before was just a coincidence etc...
Are you now prepared to conclude that the numerous occasions on which you felt the spirit and the ratifying power of the God were not genuine?
Process of doubting your doubts.
consider the consequences of this decision on yourself and others
They are learning some things for the first time.
Story of man who was a bishop and mission president, called bro millett 7-8 years ago. Asked if he knew that Joseph practiced polygamy. He had not done a lot of reading. This ought not be news to you.
One problem is that people may not have read enough.
Patrick mason quote.. one of the primary reasons.., they were never taught to expect skeletons in the closet... shocked when they find them.
Church leaders in an effort to inspire often present the best info.
Church primarily concerned with teaching the gospel of Christ, not adult historical education.
Consider challenge faced as a church. Members of all backgrounds in Sunday school. Sunday school teacher has to teach all without boring them to death.
In meetings they will always deliver milk.
Acquiring meat is a personal responsibility.
If I am not getting enough out of church then I am not putting enough into it.
Mistaken if we think Sunday school should be teaching info that you would get in a graduate level university course.
Erekson- important parts of church history have not yet been discovered. Not a cause for doubt.
Continues to hear that the church has been hiding things. Not hiding. E.g. Joseph Smith papers, some things are coming to light over time and that is ok.
The church is an unfolding line upon line experience.
We are growing together as a people and a culture.
5. Fallibility of church leaders
Example of evangelicals believing in scriptural inerrancy. But there are lots of scribal errors. Position has been updated so they now believe the original manuscripts were without error. We don't have the originals though.
The church has never adopted the position of scriptural or apostolic inerrancy. But many members don't believe it.
David o McKay in general conference said when God makes a man a prophet he does not in make him a man.
Christofferson - not every statement made by a leader constitutes doctrine. Often represents an opinion.
Uchtdorf - some struggle with unanswered questions... some things said and done that could cause people to question. Leaders may have made mistakes.
Keith Erekson - we know more than participants did about the outcome of the past, but we also know far less about their experience than the people who lived in it..... have empathy for the experiences... Don't judge people in the past by our standards.
6. They do not enjoy the intellectual stimulation or great spiritual experiences that they really should be having.
Some say the church blocks, inhibits, prevents such a thing.
Expectations. What should I expect from a sermon in the church? Challenge of meeting everyones needs at the same time.
Understand what we do at church and what we don't do at church, or at general conference, and who the audience is for each.
Spiritual impatience serious problem. Causes some to rise up and say they can show others how to have these experiences. How to have second comforter. How to see Jesus on regular basis. How to receive letters from Enoch and melchizedek.
Calls it terribly arrogant.
Responsibilities. How should I participate in each meeting? Praying for the teacher. Listening with serious intent. He does not get bored at church. Partly to do with expectations and responsibilities. My responsibility is to help make the teacher as successful as she can be.
Packer. Do not be impatient to gain great spiritual knowledge, do not force it or you are open to being misled. "That all may be defied" 1981 talk to new mission presidents.
7. They are at odds with church leaders on social, moral or family issues
To what extent is there an exemption clause in following the prophetic?
Do the first pres cease to be living prophets when their counsel is contrary to what we feel about a given issue.
Do I believe the brethren are prophets when they speak, announce things like perpetual education fund, stir members to help refugees etc but not when they speak about matters relating to the family that are at odds with societies values.
This is a divine work in process. Please don't hyperventilate when issues arise that need to be examined and resolved. Please be kind when human frailties happen. When you see imperfection the limitation is not in the divinity of the work.
Robert millett
1. People who formally resign or are excommunicated
Or 2. Inactive
Quote from uchtdorf we honour their right to worship the almighty God according to the dictates of their own conscience.
Has spent a couple of years speaking with people who have chosen to disaffiliate and asked them what troubles them.
1. They weren't fellowshipped properly.
A Mission in South America baptised 2000 ppl. 10% retention rate.
Days of his youth they called it the kiddy dip. Baptised kids that they never saw again.
No point in doing missionary work unless we hold onto the fruits of that effort.
2. People feel they simply don't fit in.
May be single adults as part of a family church. Church represents to them all that they could not be. Childless couples. In some cases thoughtless members say stupid things.
Language or cultural barriers. What is the gospel and what is the culture. More challenging in some cultures than others.
3. They simply don't want to be members anymore.
Don't want to go to church anymore. Rising number of people that just don't want to do church anymore. Like in 1960s where people were boycotting universities, anti establishment feelings. Voting with their feet. Often takes place as they leave high school. Difficult transition. Someone given a church assignment that is too big for them. Time commitments. Tithes and offerings. Family conflict.
4. Unresolved doctrinal or historical questions. Along with sweet discoveries there are hazards. Blessing to have internet, curse to have the internet. People who believe everything they read. For the first time ppl are introduced to doctrinal ideas or historical matter that they knew nothing about. BY Adam God, priesthood restriction, book of Abraham, mountain meadows.
He said he asks people a series of questions:
Did you ever have a testimony of the truthfulness of the restored gospel?
When did you first begin to sense the work was true? Can you describe that occasion? What did it feel like? What thoughts accompanied those feelings? Wants them to remember what they felt.
What convinced you that the book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ?
How much of a factor in your spiritual conviction was your intellect?
What part of your testimony was solely dependent on facts and propositions?
When did you begin to feel that it was not true and what led you to that conclusion?
Have you earnestly prayed about this matter?
Has God revealed to you by the power of the holy spirit that all that you believed is not true?
Has never met a person where God told them the church is not true. Not unheard of but not common.
Are you now persuaded that your marriage in the temple is meaningless and that you are no longer sealed to your wife and children?
What will the effect of this decision of yours have for your family? Affects so many facets of our lives.
To what extent has your recent period of questioning and doubt required you to go back and reinterpret your past? What I felt before was just a coincidence etc...
Are you now prepared to conclude that the numerous occasions on which you felt the spirit and the ratifying power of the God were not genuine?
Process of doubting your doubts.
consider the consequences of this decision on yourself and others
They are learning some things for the first time.
Story of man who was a bishop and mission president, called bro millett 7-8 years ago. Asked if he knew that Joseph practiced polygamy. He had not done a lot of reading. This ought not be news to you.
One problem is that people may not have read enough.
Patrick mason quote.. one of the primary reasons.., they were never taught to expect skeletons in the closet... shocked when they find them.
Church leaders in an effort to inspire often present the best info.
Church primarily concerned with teaching the gospel of Christ, not adult historical education.
Consider challenge faced as a church. Members of all backgrounds in Sunday school. Sunday school teacher has to teach all without boring them to death.
In meetings they will always deliver milk.
Acquiring meat is a personal responsibility.
If I am not getting enough out of church then I am not putting enough into it.
Mistaken if we think Sunday school should be teaching info that you would get in a graduate level university course.
Erekson- important parts of church history have not yet been discovered. Not a cause for doubt.
Continues to hear that the church has been hiding things. Not hiding. E.g. Joseph Smith papers, some things are coming to light over time and that is ok.
The church is an unfolding line upon line experience.
We are growing together as a people and a culture.
5. Fallibility of church leaders
Example of evangelicals believing in scriptural inerrancy. But there are lots of scribal errors. Position has been updated so they now believe the original manuscripts were without error. We don't have the originals though.
The church has never adopted the position of scriptural or apostolic inerrancy. But many members don't believe it.
David o McKay in general conference said when God makes a man a prophet he does not in make him a man.
Christofferson - not every statement made by a leader constitutes doctrine. Often represents an opinion.
Uchtdorf - some struggle with unanswered questions... some things said and done that could cause people to question. Leaders may have made mistakes.
Keith Erekson - we know more than participants did about the outcome of the past, but we also know far less about their experience than the people who lived in it..... have empathy for the experiences... Don't judge people in the past by our standards.
6. They do not enjoy the intellectual stimulation or great spiritual experiences that they really should be having.
Some say the church blocks, inhibits, prevents such a thing.
Expectations. What should I expect from a sermon in the church? Challenge of meeting everyones needs at the same time.
Understand what we do at church and what we don't do at church, or at general conference, and who the audience is for each.
Spiritual impatience serious problem. Causes some to rise up and say they can show others how to have these experiences. How to have second comforter. How to see Jesus on regular basis. How to receive letters from Enoch and melchizedek.
Calls it terribly arrogant.
Responsibilities. How should I participate in each meeting? Praying for the teacher. Listening with serious intent. He does not get bored at church. Partly to do with expectations and responsibilities. My responsibility is to help make the teacher as successful as she can be.
Packer. Do not be impatient to gain great spiritual knowledge, do not force it or you are open to being misled. "That all may be defied" 1981 talk to new mission presidents.
7. They are at odds with church leaders on social, moral or family issues
To what extent is there an exemption clause in following the prophetic?
Do the first pres cease to be living prophets when their counsel is contrary to what we feel about a given issue.
Do I believe the brethren are prophets when they speak, announce things like perpetual education fund, stir members to help refugees etc but not when they speak about matters relating to the family that are at odds with societies values.
This is a divine work in process. Please don't hyperventilate when issues arise that need to be examined and resolved. Please be kind when human frailties happen. When you see imperfection the limitation is not in the divinity of the work.
The probation of a young seer: Joseph, Moroni, and the gold plates
The probation of a young seer: Joseph, Moroni, and the gold plates
Steven c Harper
Js journal. Age 17, repented hardily. Angel appeared.
Mosiah 8:16-18 Seers use objects. "A means" is an object.
Alma 37:6-7, 22-23 a special stone or stones = means. A seer needs to be prepared to use the means that God has provided to fulfil his purposes.
Js history 28-29. Joseph concealing what happened in those 3 years but acknowledges he shouldn't have done what he did. Teenage years do not define him.
Willard Richards adds the disclaimer about not supposing that there are any great or malignant sins.
Tales of a traveller. Washington Irving as Geoffrey crayon. Writes a lot about the magical views of the Dutch settlers at the time.
Tells us we need to believe in the enchanted world to follow along. He loves it but says we see it through the point of view of the enlightened world. We don't see the world objectively. We seen it how we are conditioned to seen it. Science, rationalism.
Book tells stories about guardian spirits that watch over treasures and ppl go on quests. He is not saying they are true, just that they were part of the culture.
There is a tendency to see ourselves as superior to people in the past.
Talked about money diggers and how they also had to appease the guardian spirit or you would not get the treasure.
Has never read about a successful quest. Entertainment of the time. Always on the cusp of finding the treasure.
Isaac Newton was a mathematician but also a magician and theologian. He though it was natural to combine the two. Since then the two worlds have been divided.
Showed drawing of seer stone by John Dee.
Lucy Mack- Joseph was in possesion of certain means by which be could discern things that could not be seen by the natural eye. Photo of brown seer stone.
Josiah stole hears about Joseph and asks him to come and look for Spanish treasure.
Joseph is a lowercase seer a long time before he was an uppercase seer.
Talks about visiting Sally chase who was known for glass looking because he wanted to do it too. Story of how he found the stone in the creek.
That story is recorded by the justice of the peace when Joseph accused of disturbing the peace by looking through a glass.
BY records joseph saying every man on earth is entitled to a seer stone.
Mormonism unveiled. E d Howe, Solomon Spalding. SH does not trust the book but if you know how to read them you can sift out what is true and what is false. Published 1834. Sent apostate member to go and interview all of js neighbours. It is true and false.
Statement by Willard chase, Sallys older brother. Also a treasurer Hunter. 1822 hired joseph and Alvin to dig a well. Stone found at bottom. Joseph put it into his hat and saw things in it.
JS Letter book has his version. Angel tells him about the plates. Is 17, is still not mature enough to fathom the weight that will be on his shoulders.
JS history 34-35 talks more about seers and stones.
He is not fully comprehending what Moroni says but the idea of using seer stone is not new to him.
1823 he tries to get the plates.
Oliver cowdrey wrote in the church newspaper in 1834 about Joseph's experience with a diagram. Oliver do not blame Joseph for not being ready immediately, said he was young and easily diverted.
He is told to come back on one year to try to get the plates again. Didn't know at the time that it would be four years. Only knew he had to wait another year. He was on probation.
1824 again thinks he is taking the plates home. Has the plates in hand. Tempted to see what else was in the box. Plates disappeared. Hurled back with great force. Went home weeping. Pressure from family to get them. Worried that he will never get them.
No record of 1825 meeting.
Told to come in 1826 and that if he is not ready then, he will never get them. According to Joseph knight, Moroni told him that he needed to bring the right person. Answer was Alvin, but Alvin died. Joseph then asked who, Moroni said you will know. Looked in glass and learned it was Emma hale. Courted, married, was able to get plates. Concealed in log until can get a locking box.
Joseph's mother very worried about the treasurer seekers in the neighbourhood that Joseph used to associate with.
Joseph decided not to wait until the evening of the 22nd, went at midnight as soon as it turned 22nd. Lucy anxious, working around the house. Sad when he returns without the plates but Joseph reassured her. Lets her feel the strange stones through linen covering, calls it a key.
After breakfast Joseph tells Joseph knight that he is disappointed, then says it is ten times better than he expected. Says he can see anything through the stones.
Lucy Mack Smith general conference talk 1845. After repenting of sins, Joseph was visited by angel, gave unto him the means of which to translate the book.
Mentioned Mark Hoffmann.
Joseph started as a kid with a gift believing in some true things and some false things, and grew out of that into a Seer.
Steven c Harper
Js journal. Age 17, repented hardily. Angel appeared.
Mosiah 8:16-18 Seers use objects. "A means" is an object.
Alma 37:6-7, 22-23 a special stone or stones = means. A seer needs to be prepared to use the means that God has provided to fulfil his purposes.
Js history 28-29. Joseph concealing what happened in those 3 years but acknowledges he shouldn't have done what he did. Teenage years do not define him.
Willard Richards adds the disclaimer about not supposing that there are any great or malignant sins.
Tales of a traveller. Washington Irving as Geoffrey crayon. Writes a lot about the magical views of the Dutch settlers at the time.
Tells us we need to believe in the enchanted world to follow along. He loves it but says we see it through the point of view of the enlightened world. We don't see the world objectively. We seen it how we are conditioned to seen it. Science, rationalism.
Book tells stories about guardian spirits that watch over treasures and ppl go on quests. He is not saying they are true, just that they were part of the culture.
There is a tendency to see ourselves as superior to people in the past.
Talked about money diggers and how they also had to appease the guardian spirit or you would not get the treasure.
Has never read about a successful quest. Entertainment of the time. Always on the cusp of finding the treasure.
Isaac Newton was a mathematician but also a magician and theologian. He though it was natural to combine the two. Since then the two worlds have been divided.
Showed drawing of seer stone by John Dee.
Lucy Mack- Joseph was in possesion of certain means by which be could discern things that could not be seen by the natural eye. Photo of brown seer stone.
Josiah stole hears about Joseph and asks him to come and look for Spanish treasure.
Joseph is a lowercase seer a long time before he was an uppercase seer.
Talks about visiting Sally chase who was known for glass looking because he wanted to do it too. Story of how he found the stone in the creek.
That story is recorded by the justice of the peace when Joseph accused of disturbing the peace by looking through a glass.
BY records joseph saying every man on earth is entitled to a seer stone.
Mormonism unveiled. E d Howe, Solomon Spalding. SH does not trust the book but if you know how to read them you can sift out what is true and what is false. Published 1834. Sent apostate member to go and interview all of js neighbours. It is true and false.
Statement by Willard chase, Sallys older brother. Also a treasurer Hunter. 1822 hired joseph and Alvin to dig a well. Stone found at bottom. Joseph put it into his hat and saw things in it.
JS Letter book has his version. Angel tells him about the plates. Is 17, is still not mature enough to fathom the weight that will be on his shoulders.
JS history 34-35 talks more about seers and stones.
He is not fully comprehending what Moroni says but the idea of using seer stone is not new to him.
1823 he tries to get the plates.
Oliver cowdrey wrote in the church newspaper in 1834 about Joseph's experience with a diagram. Oliver do not blame Joseph for not being ready immediately, said he was young and easily diverted.
He is told to come back on one year to try to get the plates again. Didn't know at the time that it would be four years. Only knew he had to wait another year. He was on probation.
1824 again thinks he is taking the plates home. Has the plates in hand. Tempted to see what else was in the box. Plates disappeared. Hurled back with great force. Went home weeping. Pressure from family to get them. Worried that he will never get them.
No record of 1825 meeting.
Told to come in 1826 and that if he is not ready then, he will never get them. According to Joseph knight, Moroni told him that he needed to bring the right person. Answer was Alvin, but Alvin died. Joseph then asked who, Moroni said you will know. Looked in glass and learned it was Emma hale. Courted, married, was able to get plates. Concealed in log until can get a locking box.
Joseph's mother very worried about the treasurer seekers in the neighbourhood that Joseph used to associate with.
Joseph decided not to wait until the evening of the 22nd, went at midnight as soon as it turned 22nd. Lucy anxious, working around the house. Sad when he returns without the plates but Joseph reassured her. Lets her feel the strange stones through linen covering, calls it a key.
After breakfast Joseph tells Joseph knight that he is disappointed, then says it is ten times better than he expected. Says he can see anything through the stones.
Lucy Mack Smith general conference talk 1845. After repenting of sins, Joseph was visited by angel, gave unto him the means of which to translate the book.
Mentioned Mark Hoffmann.
Joseph started as a kid with a gift believing in some true things and some false things, and grew out of that into a Seer.
Re: Why people choose to leave
Oh boy. That was a rough one.
Oh, so it's my fault that I was taught half-truths and bald-faced lies at church. Got it.LostGirl wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:02 am In meetings they will always deliver milk.
Acquiring meat is a personal responsibility.
If I am not getting enough out of church then I am not putting enough into it.
Mistaken if we think Sunday school should be teaching info that you would get in a graduate level university course.
It sounds like #5 gives a pretty good exemption clause in following the prophet. How can he even say these in the same talk?LostGirl wrote: ↑Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:02 am 7. They are at odds with church leaders on social, moral or family issues
To what extent is there an exemption clause in following the prophetic?
Do the first pres cease to be living prophets when their counsel is contrary to what we feel about a given issue.
Do I believe the brethren are prophets when they speak, announce things like perpetual education fund, stir members to help refugees etc but not when they speak about matters relating to the family that are at odds with societies values.
5. Fallibility of church leaders
Example of evangelicals believing in scriptural inerrancy. But there are lots of scribal errors. Position has been updated so they now believe the original manuscripts were without error. We don't have the originals though.
The church has never adopted the position of scriptural or apostolic inerrancy. But many members don't believe it.
David o McKay in general conference said when God makes a man a prophet he does not in make him a man.
Christofferson - not every statement made by a leader constitutes doctrine. Often represents an opinion.
Uchtdorf - some struggle with unanswered questions... some things said and done that could cause people to question. Leaders may have made mistakes.
Keith Erekson - we know more than participants did about the outcome of the past, but we also know far less about their experience than the people who lived in it..... have empathy for the experiences... Don't judge people in the past by our standards.
Did you ever have a testimony of the truthfulness of the restored gospel? - I thought I did based on how I was indoctrinated to interpret my feelings.
When did you first begin to sense the work was true? Can you describe that occasion? What did it feel like? What thoughts accompanied those feelings? Wants them to remember what they felt. - Probably at a youth conference as a pre-teen; it felt good.
What convinced you that the book of Mormon was another testament of Jesus Christ? I don't know if I was ever convinced. I assumed it was true as early as I can remember. I prayed to know if it was true and felt like I forced a feeling in response that I convinced myself was a confirmation (I remember being a little disappointed).
How much of a factor in your spiritual conviction was your intellect? A fair amount. It had to make sense, and I really enjoyed thinking through spiritual topics intellectually and discovering new ideas.
What part of your testimony was solely dependent on facts and propositions? Clearly not much. If I had realized that earlier I would have rejected the teachings of the church earlier.
When did you begin to feel that it was not true and what led you to that conclusion? I began to feel that the church was not true when I started noticing the confirmation bias that people displayed in work tasks, then considered what that would mean for matters of faith. I realized that faith strongly primes us to be susceptible to confirmation bias. Because of that I started considering what I might be having confirmation bias about, and realizing that those who taught me the gospel were quite susceptible as well. I stopped believing in the Mormon God, and in any God who actively participates in our lives. Logically, with no God the church is the work of men.
Have you earnestly prayed about this matter? Nope. Why pray to a God who doesn't answer and open myself up to misinterpreting feelings for divine direction?
Has God revealed to you by the power of the holy spirit that all that you believed is not true? No, see answers above.
Has never met a person where God told them the church is not true. Not unheard of but not common.
Are you now persuaded that your marriage in the temple is meaningless and that you are no longer sealed to your wife and children? No, I do not consider my marriage meaningless. This is a bad question. I consider the temple a control mechanism and I think it is bad. I don't believe that anyone is sealed to anyone else outside of what they feel in their hearts and what the law says.
What will the effect of this decision of yours have for your family? Affects so many facets of our lives. Hopefully it will help them break free from the chains with which they are bound.
To what extent has your recent period of questioning and doubt required you to go back and reinterpret your past? What I felt before was just a coincidence etc... A lot. It has been fascinating.
Are you now prepared to conclude that the numerous occasions on which you felt the spirit and the ratifying power of the God were not genuine? I believe the feelings were genuine, I don't believe that any so-called spirit or so-called God were involved though.
"I would write about life. Every person would be exactly as important as any other. All facts would also be given equal weightiness. Nothing would be left out. Let others bring order to chaos. I would bring chaos to order" - Kurt Vonnegut
Re: Why people choose to leave
This pretty much tells me all I need to know. And the rest of it doesn't disappoint my expectations.
Yeah, the Church wants people who believe everything they hear, not everything they read. Or at least only the things the Church tells them to read.Blessing to have internet, curse to have the internet. People who believe everything they read. For the first time ppl are introduced to doctrinal ideas or historical matter that they knew nothing about.
As expected now he is blaming the members for not having read the stuff the Church told them not to read.Story of man who was a bishop and mission president, called bro millett 7-8 years ago. Asked if he knew that Joseph practiced polygamy. He had not done a lot of reading. This ought not be news to you.
One problem is that people may not have read enough.
Then of what use is church to an adult. They've already heard all of that milk over and over and over by the time they get that old. Why continue? Why even have Sunday School for long-time members if it isn't going to ever examine anything a child hasn't already done? Some churches do have quite involved Sunday School programs where adults who are interested can delve into all sorts of new or different things. Pastors who graduate from divinity schools are expected to have a good grasp on many of these subjects and the capability to learn and examine.In meetings they will always deliver milk.
Acquiring meat is a personal responsibility.
If I am not getting enough out of church then I am not putting enough into it.
Mistaken if we think Sunday school should be teaching info that you would get in a graduate level university course.
And blaming the members again.
And why shouldn't Sunday School be teaching info you would get in a graduate level university course? Or at least, why isn't there an avenue in the Church for doing that? Members have put more time into this a student has a typical graduate level class. He's blaming the members for not having the background and asking for places to get, when the Church refuses to provide most of it and actively campaigns against many of it.
Mormons do not believe in apostolic inerrancy but act as if they do. Catholics believe in papal inerrancy but act as if they don't. (A gross over-simplification, but contains some truth.)Example of evangelicals believing in scriptural inerrancy. But there are lots of scribal errors. Position has been updated so they now believe the original manuscripts were without error. We don't have the originals though.
The church has never adopted the position of scriptural or apostolic inerrancy. But many members don't believe it.
Millet, and his Church, again wants it both ways. Members should study the words of church leaders, especially in GC or the Ensign as if they were scripture, but if that causes problems for the Church, then the members should disregard it.
Absolutely. It was very refreshing to attend the UU church for some time after I first left and find a place that didn't try to block and inhibit intellectual stimulation and spiritual experiences.They do not enjoy the intellectual stimulation or great spiritual experiences that they really should be having.
Some say the church blocks, inhibits, prevents such a thing.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
Re: The divine role of men and women
This one is rubbish, too, of course.
Somehow they fail to see the inherent contradictions in these statements.Proclamation
Serve as equal partners
Fathers preside and provide protection
Mothers nurture children
Obligated to help one another as equal partners
Poor babies. They really are the fragile sex.Men also having their roles denigrated.
"Close your eyes, for your eyes will only tell the truth,
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")
And the truth isn't what you want to see" (Charles Hart, "The Music of the Night")