Modesty Lesson for Sharing Time

[Not Buying It]

No matter what you think of my points, I think the thing I had a hard time reading in your post Not Buying It, is for me, it reads as if there is no hope for change. America will just keep objectifying women forever. And there I have to disagree. If that is right, I may as well book a one way ticket to Sweden right now for my daughter and I so we can be equal. I have to keep believing that this can change. I have to keep fighting for it to change, because if I don't, then I live a life of objectification and no hope. That is something I cannot do. The current political climate is grim for women, but I HAVE to believe that it can change. That it will change.

It is not my purpose to take away anyone's hope, and I would not want to do that to anyone on this subject. Respectfully, men viewing women as sexual objects is much like violence and war in that most of us know it is wrong, yet these things have been with us for thousands of years and they won't change quickly. I am sure there are even creeper men in Sweden, however much farther ahead they may be than the USA in their treatment of women.

Besides, there is a growing and powerful force that will keep men objectifying women - porn. These are contradictory times - we cannot on the one hand send a message that women are increasingly valued and respected for more than just being sexual objects at the same time we are experiencing the marked increase of an industry devoted completely to portraying women as sexual objects. We can't have it both ways. And porn is powerful, ubiquitous, and say what you will but you won't convince me that repeated viewing of material that treats women as sexual objects whose only purpose is male satisfaction doesn't impact the way men who view it think about women. The guy who watches several hours of porn a week hasn't strengthened his resistance to looking at a strange women's breasts on the subway.

Things can change - but we have to be realistic about the forces working against that change.

[Not Buying It]

We know you are not sexist NBI. Thank you for adding your perspective...

...When TBMs creepers tell her to go put more clothes on, they are demonstrating that they think they have a right to her body, which they do not.

Thank you, I really do appreciate that.

You make an interesting point about the TBM that tells a young woman to cover up - in think it says way more about the TBM than it says about the young girl. I think you are right to equate it to the creeper in public, because it demonstrates a similar obsession, but just with a different response and a different way of dealing with it. I've known Church leaders who talked obsessively about sex in meetings and talks - and it was obvious when they did that it wasn't because they hated sex, it was because they had issues they were trying to sort through, and it was usually incredibly awkward. Sometimes the TBM creeper is a unique kind of creeper, but no less creepy.

When Elder Oaks calls women "walking pornography", it is pretty clear it isn't the women who have the problem.

[alas]

What Give it Time said about rapists actually looking for the very modest as potential victims is correct. There are several things that rapists look for in potential victims. Things like confidence showing in the woman's posture and walk is a sign of a woman who is more likely to fight back, to report and to testify= not a good victim. And he will find someone easier. Signs that the woman believes rape culture is something that makes her less likely to fight back, report, and testify. Too much clothing is one of the signs that the woman believes rape culture that tells her that it is her dressing skimpily is what causes rape. So, to avoid rape, she over dresses. Things like a winter coat when the weather is warm is something that says the woman is trying to hide her female body because female bodies get a person raped. T-shirt and shorts to swim in, clothing that is baggy, unattractive, and covers the woman from neck, to wrist, to ankle are symptoms that she is trying to hide her body. She feels that her attractiveness is what causes rape. She often has already been a victim of sexual assault and believes the rape culture that she caused it.

Of course, anything that makes the person look like an easy victim will attract a rapist. When I counseled rape victims, there were a surprising number that were vulnerable because of disability or age. They might be vulnerable because they were young. If a woman makes it to 18, her chances of being raped drop significantly. Adults know how to protect themselves better than 14 year old kids. Disability makes it harder for a woman to fight back, to run, and they are often so shamed that their disability made them a target that they do not report. I had several disabled women that the rapist told he picked them because they were blind and couldn't identify him, or in a wheel chair and couldn't fight back.

So, really, it is vulnerability, not sexual attractiveness or dressing like a hooker, that makes a woman more likely to be picked as a target.

But the creeps who want women to cover up, because they are uncomfortable around an attractive woman, they tell women that it isn't safe for them to dress "too sexy" because rape. But really, it is about controlling women by keeping them afraid of rape, part of rape culture.

But as for the point of the original post, it is sexualizing toddlers to think a three year old needs to be taught modesty. Seriously, what kind of pedophile thinks anyone in primary needs to be taught modesty? These are children. Men need to be taught that children are children, not sex object.

Once I was the counselor in the support group for men who had sexually abused their daughters. My supervisor thought it would be a good idea, I guess to see if I could handle it without murdering anyone, most likely him for putting me there. Anyway, the men said things like, "She sat on my lap and wiggled seductively." She was two. The seductive part was 100% in his head. Yes, he was Mormon. Or, "She was dressed provocatively," in nothing but panties and she was five, the provocation was in his own head and he was Mormon too.

Men need to be taught that what the woman or child is wearing is not a signal to him personally. Because when men are taught to see a signal to them personally in an adult woman, the pedophiles will see what a child is wearing or how she is behaving as a signal that the child is seducing him.

Yes, anyone who thinks that attractive young women are "walking pornography" has a serious problem, no matter what they are wearing. Porn has a porposely sexual nature, while nudity is just a lack of clothing. And to see that sexual nature in a YW who is just walking is pretty twisted. But BYU that doesn't know the difference between nudity in art and porn is just exactly the kind of environment to teach men that an attractive woman is purposely trying to seduce him. It isn't about you.

[blazerb]

It seems to me that another problem in these discussions is the lack of acceptance of a woman's sexual feelings. A boy's sexual feelings are acknowledged and made dependent on the actions of women, but no one seems to talk about the female sexual feelings. It's like they do not exist. We should let women have their feelings without shame. Both men and women have sexual thoughts and are able to control them.

[Give It Time]

I appreciate alas's post, because she has insight from talking to several sex criminals. I wasn't married to a criminal, yet, but I do believe by his own words and actions, my ex considered himself a rapist. I don't know if he'd pick up and carry that title, but he did admit to the point of view. At this point I'm not angry about it. I think there's a real possibility for former spouses and girlfriends of men with this mindset to get together and share good information. Alas has information from a breadth of experience and credentials. The former significant others saw the day-to-day, saw the attitude, heard the comments. I think if we could combine these two sources, we'd finally get some good information. Information that's much better than the drivel that's been promoted for the past few millennia that we now will be able to refer to "old husband's tales".

One more thing, it is a statement that I consider unsettling that a man considers a woman walking porn. Either generating that statement or giving it credibility by passing it on is not a good indicator.