NOM

redjay wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:04 am My Bishop got up last week and gave a talk which went something along the lines of

Christ said he will spew you out if you are luke warm

If you're not fully committed what are you doing here?

The church is either all true or all false, and I know that it's true

In the name of Jesus Amen

----------------------------------

I felt like a fish completely out of water

I love it when they play like this It's like Christ will spew me out of his mouth? Christ? As in Jesus Christ? They guy who said: "suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not" ? They guy who said absolutely nothing about what the ideal family should look like? The guy who said absolutely nothing about homosexuals, but lots of stuff about hypocrites and Pharisees? The guy who spent his ministry reaching out he the marginalized groups of society? That guy? I could go on and on, but really if anyone getting spewed out of Christ's month it's gonna be the people actively ignoring his teachings while professing to bear his name.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:53 amThe black/white world view is False.

This is so true. I believe that if they stopped teaching black and white thinking, they'd lose fewer people. It's when you say "all or nothing" that you lose people when they see that something is a lie. They've been taught, essentially, that if one thing is false, it all is.

And it is truly sad that there is no place in the Church for freedom to speak what you really think, freedom to share your real concerns.

MoPag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:03 pmbut really if anyone getting spewed out of Christ's month it's gonna be the people actively ignoring his teachings while professing to bear his name.

Spot on.

2bizE wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:58 pm

No Tof wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:28 pm I agree. The safe places are not in the church buildings or if inside it's in the foyer.

NOM is a safe place and fulfills a need for members looking to vent and hear opinions without much negative recoil.

This IMO is a big reason for many of us leaving our comfortable places/pews of cog bias to search for what is really going on in our world.

I feel this situation is the way it is and will always be in the church, but I like surprises. Surprise me.

Yep, the foyer is the safest. The kitchen is a close second.

Ha! Im currently in the kitchen reading this thread. A mom with cranky kids needed the couch in the foyer.

Emower wrote: ↑Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:34 pm

2bizE wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:58 pm

No Tof wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:28 pm I agree. The safe places are not in the church buildings or if inside it's in the foyer.

NOM is a safe place and fulfills a need for members looking to vent and hear opinions without much negative recoil.

This IMO is a big reason for many of us leaving our comfortable places/pews of cog bias to search for what is really going on in our world.

I feel this situation is the way it is and will always be in the church, but I like surprises. Surprise me.

Yep, the foyer is the safest. The kitchen is a close second.

Ha! Im currently in the kitchen reading this thread. A mom with cranky kids needed the couch in the foyer.

The parking lot is a bit safer. Especially at night, in an unlit corner, in the backseat...

MoPag wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:03 pm It's like Christ will spew me out of his mouth? Christ? As in Jesus Christ? They guy who said: "suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not"?

Elder 1:
Elder Oaks, the quorum waits for you
The Seers and Revelators are here for you

Elder Oaks:
Ah, gentlemen, you know why we are here
We've not much time and quite a problem here

Mob outside:
Hosanna! Superstar!

Elder Holland:
Listen to that howling mob of blockheads in the street!
A trick or two with lepers and the whole town's on its feet

Quorum:
He is dangerous

Mob outside:
Jesus Christ Superstar
Tell us that you're who we say you are

Quorum:
He is dangerous

Elder 2:
The man is in town right now to whip up some support

Elder 3:
A rabble rousing mission that I think we must abort

Quorum:
He is dangerous

Mob outside:
Jesus Christ Superstar!

***Tip of the sorting hat to Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.***
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo81UqO54dg

deacon blues wrote: ↑Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:53 am I believe this is the real issue for people like your bishop. The black/white world view is False. The Essays make this obvious to any person who uses reason rather than indoctrination to analyze the situation. But the top down leadership model is still mostly choosing the indoctrinated rather than the reasoning people, (mostly men, due to the priesthood paradigm) to call the shots at all levels. The church sees these indoctrinated people as the "salt of the earth/church" and caters to them at the expense of those who want to try to understand and deal with reality. If this "salt" continues to overwhelm the natural flavor (reality) of the LDS world view, I think they are going to become more like the fundamentalists they profess to abhor.

I think there is a bit more to it. Leadership realizes that there is a engagement issue, but they don't know how to address it. I see two common issues:

1. They simply don't know any alternative. They have always seen the same thing in the church and they simply don't know anything else. It's the old adage of "If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always gotten."
2. What they want to do to improve things is not allowed or highly discouraged via rules or culture.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:00 am 1. They simply don't know any alternative. They have always seen the same thing in the church and they simply don't know anything else. It's the old adage of "If you do what you have always done, you will get what you have always gotten."
2. What they want to do to improve things is not allowed or highly discouraged via rules or culture.

I think you are right and it's even more hilariously complicated. Many in leadership do have solid ideas of alternatives. But each leader has a conflicting set of ideas and uniting behind one is not easy to do, especially with a current prophet that I would generously describe as "incapacitated". Their organizational inertia which requires unanimity among the apostles does prevent many big ideas from going forward. When Gordon Hinckley was in power he stayed thoroughly at the helm and built more than 100 new temples which was a reasonably good idea as a "faithful" way forward. Who is the next strong, transformative leader who can implement the change that let's semi-believers quietly stick around?

It's pretty amazing that the essays got released, but their widespread acknowledgement has not happened and I think this reflects a quiet opposition among a segment of leadership. These might have been the "safe place" at church, but they hide in anonymity and are often regarded with significant skepticism by believers. If all 15 apostles were thoroughly united behind the essays then I would have expected that some of those topics might have been presented in General Conference or as an overt segment of Gospel Doctrine class.

Well, one thing seems obvious- the 15 general authorities all together can't get as much revelation or inspiration as Joseph Smith did on his bad days. Where the revelation comes from is another question.

deacon blues wrote: ↑Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:09 pm Well, one thing seems obvious- the 15 general authorities all together can't get as much revelation or inspiration as Joseph Smith did on his bad days. Where the revelation comes from is another question.

Very true - but unlike Joseph Smith, their interest is in maintaining the status quo. Joseph Smith knew to keep his followers and attract more he had to be coming up with new and exciting things all the time - and if some of these new and exciting things got him more money, power, and sex (think Kirkland Anti-Banking Society and polygamy), all the better. And he was a pretty dynamic guy anyway.

The Brethren today are the exact opposite. The Church is well established, they think to maintain their power they need to maintain the status quo. Change threatens their status. Where Joseph needed new things to build his kingdom, they inherited a kingdom with a culture and traditions that keep them in power. And the selection process for top leadership pretty much ensures anyone with dynamic ideas that would shake up the organization are filtered out.

I would argue the process for selecting top leadership pretty much guarantees no dynamic, inspiring figures who might make the kinds of sweeping changes Joseph did on a regular basis will ever be leaders in the Church. Hence no "revelation".

Safe space at church is like getting into the bear cage at the zoo. Some day maybe we will feel comfortable talking about the issues without being judged or labeled.