NOM

MoPag wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:17 am What if her Bishop had gotten up and hugged her when she was done and then preached a message of love and acceptance to the ward? And what if that had gone viral?

I could see that going even more viral since it would be the scenario no one expected. It would show that Mormons can rise to the occasion rather than sink to the occasion.

moksha wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:38 pm

MoPag wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:17 am What if her Bishop had gotten up and hugged her when she was done and then preached a message of love and acceptance to the ward? And what if that had gone viral?

I could see that going even more viral since it would be the scenario no one expected. It would show that Mormons can rise to the occasion rather than sink to the occasion.

And the best part would be that everyone in COB would be like: "Uh what should we do?' Because it would be good press, but they also have a following of bigots who won't like it and expect them to say something against it.

MoPag wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:45 pmbut they also have a following of bigots who won't like it and expect them to say something against it.

And sadly, those seem to be the ones that the organization chooses to stand for when the rubber meets the road.

I'm feeling particularly depressed about humanity, family and religion today. This song came up on my mix and it has re-flooded me with emotions about what this situation confirms once again. While many reject mormonism, mormonism (and religion in general) reject so many who are desperately trying to make it work. I don't belong in the religion of my birth. Most days I'm fine with that...today it makes me mourn.
Creep-Infants on Thrones Edition

I am wondering what the long-term impact of this event may be. People all over the world have seen a priesthood leader shutting down a 12 year old girl who talks about being a lesbian - hard to imagine a worse PR scenario. The Brethren will issue some kind of letter to the membership about the purpose of Fast and Testimony meeting in the next couple of weeks for sure - now that they have been given a very public reminder of the dangers of open mic Sunday, what changes will they make? They don't want this happening repeatedly on a large scale, but there is nothing preventing it really.

Also, now that priesthood leaders have discovered that their heavy-handed authoritarian actions could be captured on video and shared on the internet at any time, will they be more careful? Generally they are only bullies when they think they can get away with it.

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:45 am I am wondering what the long-term impact of this event may be. People all over the world have seen a priesthood leader shutting down a 12 year old girl who talks about being a lesbian - hard to imagine a worse PR scenario. The Brethren will issue some kind of letter to the membership about the purpose of Fast and Testimony meeting in the next couple of weeks for sure - now that they have been given a very public reminder of the dangers of open mic Sunday, what changes will they make? They don't want this happening repeatedly on a large scale, but there is nothing preventing it really.

Also, now that priesthood leaders have discovered that their heavy-handed authoritarian actions could be captured on video and shared on the internet at any time, will they be more careful? Generally they are only bullies when they think they can get away with it.

I bet we will get a letter read over the pulpit about not filming "sacred" F&T meeting, or filming in the chapel.

MoPag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:17 pm

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:45 am I am wondering what the long-term impact of this event may be. People all over the world have seen a priesthood leader shutting down a 12 year old girl who talks about being a lesbian - hard to imagine a worse PR scenario. The Brethren will issue some kind of letter to the membership about the purpose of Fast and Testimony meeting in the next couple of weeks for sure - now that they have been given a very public reminder of the dangers of open mic Sunday, what changes will they make? They don't want this happening repeatedly on a large scale, but there is nothing preventing it really.

Also, now that priesthood leaders have discovered that their heavy-handed authoritarian actions could be captured on video and shared on the internet at any time, will they be more careful? Generally they are only bullies when they think they can get away with it.

I bet we will get a letter read over the pulpit about not filming "sacred" F&T meeting, or filming in the chapel.

You're both wrong. The FP will send out a letter barring girls from wearing ties to church.

Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:09 pm

MoPag wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:17 pm

Not Buying It wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:45 am I am wondering what the long-term impact of this event may be. People all over the world have seen a priesthood leader shutting down a 12 year old girl who talks about being a lesbian - hard to imagine a worse PR scenario. The Brethren will issue some kind of letter to the membership about the purpose of Fast and Testimony meeting in the next couple of weeks for sure - now that they have been given a very public reminder of the dangers of open mic Sunday, what changes will they make? They don't want this happening repeatedly on a large scale, but there is nothing preventing it really.

Also, now that priesthood leaders have discovered that their heavy-handed authoritarian actions could be captured on video and shared on the internet at any time, will they be more careful? Generally they are only bullies when they think they can get away with it.

I bet we will get a letter read over the pulpit about not filming "sacred" F&T meeting, or filming in the chapel.

You're both wrong. The FP will send out a letter barring girls from wearing ties to church.

Response from Russell Nelson:
"Sister Nelson, come quickly! This young man has long hair!"
"No, I don't think so Elder Nelson. I believe this is a young girl wearing a tie."
"But he says that he wishes to marry a woman in the temple"
"Oh! I think that's because she suffers from same sex attraction and liberalism!"
"Wait...she isn't wearing pants is she? Woman! Fetch me my proclamation pen!"

I saw a few pictures of this girl (and her mom) on several of the outlets carrying the story.

Maybe it's the TBM heritage in my, but I can't shake a few things.

1) She's really young. Granted, when I was 12 a scantily clad female could attract my attention. But she seems really young to make such a bold declaration. I will admit my naivete - but if anyone here is willing to share, at what age (generally) does someone know they are gay/straight/bi, etc?

2) in many of the pictures, Savannah looks like a regular kid. But the interview with John Dehlin, she is dressed rather adult like. I just get the impression she was just a regular kid. Once she gave her testimony - it's like her wardrobe jumped 5 years ahead.

3) I don't have experience with young women of this age, so maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

4) Many (critics) people say she is too young to be talking about her sex life. I agree. But I don't think we are talking about her sex life - we're talking about who she wants to be with. When I was 12, I was thinking about sex, but I was thinking about that cute girl and I wanted to talk to her but I was nervous, but I wanted to but I didn't know what to say... you get the idea. I will readily admit Savannah can start to figure out who she wants to emotionally connect with.
Being gay isn't just about sex - it's about relationships then what comes with that territory.

5) I can't tell if the mom is pushing her or supporting her.

It's a hot topic for sure. Just interesting to see how it plays out.

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:40 am I have a feeling all references to rainbows will be removed from church materials.

They can start with the song "I like to look for rainbows whenever there is rain."

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am 1) She's really young. Granted, when I was 12 a scantily clad female could attract my attention. But she seems really young to make such a bold declaration. I will admit my naivete - but if anyone here is willing to share, at what age (generally) does someone know they are gay/straight/bi, etc?

I "knew" I was attracted to the opposite sex long before 12. First kiss was probably first or second grade, and there was no question before or after that as I remember. I can can also remember plenty of kids in 6th grade (12 years old) pairing off and "going steady". No questions about if they were "old enough" to know who they were attracted to...


Here's a question: if she had stood up and said how much she likes boys, and was looking forward to getting married in the temple to a boy, would there be any question as to "if she's old enough" to be saying she likes boys?

Linked wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:50 pm

Give It Time wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:40 am I have a feeling all references to rainbows will be removed from church materials.

They can start with the song "I like to look for rainbows whenever there is rain."

"I like to look for confirmed homosexuals whenever there are leaks..." - Dallin Oaks

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:00 pm Here's a question: if she had stood up and said how much she likes boys, and was looking forward to getting married in the temple to a boy, would there be any question as to "if she's old enough" to be saying she likes boys?

And right here is the exact thought I had once I started seeing those comments on Friday. I doubt anyone would blink an eye.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am I saw a few pictures of this girl (and her mom) on several of the outlets carrying the story.

Maybe it's the TBM heritage in my, but I can't shake a few things.

1) She's really young. Granted, when I was 12 a scantily clad female could attract my attention. But she seems really young to make such a bold declaration. I will admit my naivete - but if anyone here is willing to share, at what age (generally) does someone know they are gay/straight/bi, etc?

2) in many of the pictures, Savannah looks like a regular kid. But the interview with John Dehlin, she is dressed rather adult like. I just get the impression she was just a regular kid. Once she gave her testimony - it's like her wardrobe jumped 5 years ahead.

3) I don't have experience with young women of this age, so maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

4) Many (critics) people say she is too young to be talking about her sex life. I agree. But I don't think we are talking about her sex life - we're talking about who she wants to be with. When I was 12, I was thinking about sex, but I was thinking about that cute girl and I wanted to talk to her but I was nervous, but I wanted to but I didn't know what to say... you get the idea. I will readily admit Savannah can start to figure out who she wants to emotionally connect with.
Being gay isn't just about sex - it's about relationships then what comes with that territory.

5) I can't tell if the mom is pushing her or supporting her.

It's a hot topic for sure. Just interesting to see how it plays out.

I'll admit I was the extreme and super boy crazy... chasing them to kiss them in kindergarten and a different boyfriend every year from 3rd-9th grade (then I got a steady boyfriend throughout all of high school). My mom would help me buy Christmas/birthday/v-day gifts for my boyfriends even when I was 9. At 12 she would pick him up and take us to go bowling, Lagoon, etc. Was this pushing me or supporting me?

My daughter is 12. And I have two more daughters right behind her. One day she'll dress in a long pink skirt, fluffy blouse and pigtails. The next she'll be in a black tank, black pants, black shoes sneakers and hair in her face. This is an age of discovery and my girls go through an array of fashion trends in a single week.

This has all been so emotional for me that I deactivated my FB Fri-Mon due to some very strong family opinions. As a mother to three pre-teen girls, I see one of my daughters.

wtfluff wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:00 pm

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am 1) She's really young. Granted, when I was 12 a scantily clad female could attract my attention. But she seems really young to make such a bold declaration. I will admit my naivete - but if anyone here is willing to share, at what age (generally) does someone know they are gay/straight/bi, etc?

I "knew" I was attracted to the opposite sex long before 12. First kiss was probably first or second grade, and there was no question before or after that as I remember. I can can also remember plenty of kids in 6th grade (12 years old) pairing off and "going steady". No questions about if they were "old enough" to know who they were attracted to...


Here's a question: if she had stood up and said how much she likes boys, and was looking forward to getting married in the temple to a boy, would there be any question as to "if she's old enough" to be saying she likes boys?

I'm gonna dig myself into a giant hole now. DISCLAIMER - whatever I say is sincere, even if incorrect. Really, I'm just trying to learn from the false traditions of my forefathers.

When I was 12, I can't say I was "hetero" with absolute certainty. I certainly as attracted to girls, but I enjoyed spending time with my male friends. I spent more time with boys than girls, that tends to be the nature of childhood.
It just seems to me to be a little premature to make this statement at 12. Of course, she reserves the right to change her mind. But I suppose that's my point - why make a statement so young?

I dunno. I'm really trying to understand. I know plenty of young adults that are very bright and know a lot more than I did at 12 (or more than I currently do).

WTF - you're right if she said she looks forward to marrying a boy in the temple, no one would bat an eye. I suppose the takeaway is just to not make assumptions either way. Statistically, heterosexual is more likely than homosexual, so society has played off those averages. Maybe just like when a woman is pregnant, we don't know the gender - that when a person is a child/youth, we shouldn't make other assumptions because we just don't know.

I struggle heavily with this topic. I was a major homophobe as a TBM. My dad still seems to be a major homophobe. Prior to my shelf crashing, I was softening my views, but still far from where I am now. But even today I generally stay out of these conversations because I can't get a good understanding on the matter.

I think my own views of sexuality, even in a heteronormative LDS culture were severely warped. I objectified females for the baby factories they were. Dating was just about finding a wife, not simply for having fun. My understanding of heterosexuality is very fuzzy at best, so understanding homosexuality is much more difficult. I just try my best to love everyone without prejudice- which can be tricky at times. I'm still deprogramming a lot of indoctrination.

Maybe my concerns regarding this girl are less about her sexual identity and more about adulthood coming too soon.

We criticize JS for taking Fanny for a romp at the age of 14, but we really don't question much a 14 yr old saying they like boys/girls. I think it's rather difficult to imagine that person would have no inclinations of their identity only 2 years younger.

Lady_Macbeth wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:27 pm
I'll admit I was the extreme and super boy crazy... chasing them to kiss them in kindergarten and a different boyfriend every year from 3rd-9th grade (then I got a steady boyfriend throughout all of high school). My mom would help me buy Christmas/birthday/v-day gifts for my boyfriends even when I was 9. At 12 she would pick him up and take us to go bowling, Lagoon, etc. Was this pushing me or supporting me?

My daughter is 12. And I have two more daughters right behind her. One day she'll dress in a long pink skirt, fluffy blouse and pigtails. The next she'll be in a black tank, black pants, black shoes sneakers and hair in her face. This is an age of discovery and my girls go through an array of fashion trends in a single week.

This has all been so emotional for me that I deactivated my FB Fri-Mon due to some very strong family opinions. As a mother to three pre-teen girls, I see one of my daughters.

That's what scares me, kids go through an array of trends/preferences/desires at this age. It's hard to know what will stick.

Again, if I said something incorrect/inconsiderate in any of my above comments, I'm more than happy to be proven wrong.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:47 pm That's what scares me, kids go through an array of trends/preferences/desires at this age. It's hard to know what will stick.

I can agree with this. I feel for Savannah now and for what the future holds.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 amMaybe it's the TBM heritage in my, but I can't shake a few things.

Extremely likely. it's hard to shake old habits and patterns of thinking unless one really takes the time to work on it. Even then it takes a lot to fully overcome biases. Oftentimes the more baseless they are, the harder they are to overcome.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am1) She's really young. Granted, when I was 12 a scantily clad female could attract my attention. But she seems really young to make such a bold declaration. I will admit my naivete - but if anyone here is willing to share, at what age (generally) does someone know they are gay/straight/bi, etc?

Savannah is well within normal ranges on this. At least so far as we can define normal. Fundamentally we're really not talking about normal. Even trying to consider what is normal may be fundamentally flawed. The base problem that the Church is trying to counter here is that there is so much variation in actual life, rather than the limited narrative they want to enforce. There really aren't just two sexes. There really aren't just two balanced sexual attractions. And there really isn't just one way to have a family.

Having said all of that, though, there really isn't anything particularly unusual about Savannah knowing she's lesbian at 12 years old. And being absolutely right about it. If she knows it, it's likely not a passing phase.

For straight folks, there really isn't necessarily an equivalent. People don't necessarily know they are straight. They just fit into the dominant social narrative just fine. If, like me, they grew up in a time when gays and lesbians weren't even acknowledged, they don't even know there is anything different. They just are. They never have to consider anything differently.

Part of it depends upon where they fall in the sexual orientation spectrum. The Kinsey scale is a terribly over-simplified representation, but it will do for purposes of this discussion. It goes from 0 (exclusively heterosexual) to 6 (exclusively homosexual). Significant proportions of people fall within those ranges where they may, for example, be heterosexual but have some homosexual attraction. There are reasons to believe that it is likely that those at either end of the spectrum will be more certain of their orientation and at a younger age.

I've read lots of accounts from lesbians and gays who recognized their orientations at a wide variety of ages. Some of them at 12. Some younger. Some older.

tl;dr : There is no justified reason to question Savannah's assertion at age 12 that she is lesbian.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am2) in many of the pictures, Savannah looks like a regular kid. But the interview with John Dehlin, she is dressed rather adult like. I just get the impression she was just a regular kid. Once she gave her testimony - it's like her wardrobe jumped 5 years ahead.

Is there anything unusual about this?

People dress differently in different situations. There is nothing unusual in that.

Further, I can't even figure out what your comment is related to. In Mormon Stories #759 she looks fairly typical for a 12 year old. In the photo at the top of the page (from her photo shoot, I think), she looks rather young. I think she looks older, and like she's trying to look older, in her white shirt and tie giving her testimony.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am3) I don't have experience with young women of this age, so maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Possibly. Bear in mind that that young women of this age, as with women of any age, women in general, or people in general vary a lot. But I don't find her to be particularly unusual, other than in being willing to get up and say what she believes in front of a potentially hostile audience.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am4) Many (critics) people say she is too young to be talking about her sex life. I agree. But I don't think we are talking about her sex life - we're talking about who she wants to be with. When I was 12, I was thinking about sex, but I was thinking about that cute girl and I wanted to talk to her but I was nervous, but I wanted to but I didn't know what to say... you get the idea. I will readily admit Savannah can start to figure out who she wants to emotionally connect with.
Being gay isn't just about sex - it's about relationships then what comes with that territory.

I think you've got that one pretty much figured out.

Sexual orientation is only partially about sexual activity, some would argue it's even a minor factor. Take for example a married straight couple -- how much of their lives is really about sex? There are lots of jokes about how little of it is about sex for a married couple.

One of the most illuminating things I remember came from an out gay man, whose name escapes me now. He said his mother once told him, "Why do you have to flaunt your sexuality. Your father and I never do." The son found this statement both terribly confused and very revealing.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:40 am5) I can't tell if the mom is pushing her or supporting her.

Is it really our concern?

Give It Time wrote: ↑Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:49 pm This is true. Crazy stuff does come out and I'm sure what she had to say surprised very few. On another note, we had a thread that had crazy testimonies on NOM 1.0. That would be fun. I just haven't heard anything crazy, lately.

That was my thread.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:44 pmWhen I was 12, I can't say I was "hetero" with absolute certainty. I certainly as attracted to girls, but I enjoyed spending time with my male friends. I spent more time with boys than girls, that tends to be the nature of childhood.
It just seems to me to be a little premature to make this statement at 12. Of course, she reserves the right to change her mind. But I suppose that's my point - why make a statement so young?

I wouldn't have said I was "hetero" at age 12. I wasn't any different in that regard than how I was supposed to be. Gays and lesbians weren't acknowledged. There was no reason to consider anything different. But looking back on it, yeah, I was definitely straight before age 12. If I had known that there was anything different I definitely could have separated myself into the straight category and certainly not the gay category. (I'd classify myself as a 0 on the Kinsey and have always been that way. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding how women can be attracted to men when women are so lusciously attractive. When a women comments that a guy is attractive I'm mostly perplexed and have to stop and think about what she means by that.)

A lot of things changed in these regards from when I was a kid. When the Mormons and their friends of convenience were fighting hard against Prop 8, I figured that they way they were doing it they could very well win the battle but end up losing the war. That ended up being the case. Prior to the Prop 8 battle, people didn't really know about gays and lesbians, their lives, and their relationships. Mormons desperately wanted to prevent their kids from learning about gays and lesbians. That was a huge part of their marketing for Prop 8. So they took their kids out campaigning for Prop 8 and told them all about the evils of gays and lesbians and their kids grew up knowing about them and wondering what the big deal was.

And now kids as young as Savannah (or even younger) have words to express who they are and examples of the relationships they can have.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:44 pmWTF - you're right if she said she looks forward to marrying a boy in the temple, no one would bat an eye. I suppose the takeaway is just to not make assumptions either way. Statistically, heterosexual is more likely than homosexual, so society has played off those averages. Maybe just like when a woman is pregnant, we don't know the gender - that when a person is a child/youth, we shouldn't make other assumptions because we just don't know.

If we stopped trying to make assumptions about everyone and to fit them into our pre-determined boxes, people would be a lot better off. Reality is a lot more varied than we have been conditioned to believe. Rather than trying to fit them into pre-defined gender roles we should encourage people to find their roles and how they can work together.

Korihor wrote: ↑Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:44 pmI just try my best to love everyone without prejudice- which can be tricky at times. I'm still deprogramming a lot of indoctrination.

Absolutely!