NOM

Korihor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:02 pm

I think this just falls into false traditions of forefathers. All other Christian sects focus on Easter so we won't. You would think this is their time to shine - Quoting from D&C all the time, "That he lives, for we saw him".
I think this i why they don't think focus on Easter too much. Don't pay attention to resurrected Jesus from 2k years ago. Pay attention to resurrected Jesus from 180 years ago.

This

LaMachina wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:49 pm
So much this. Do other churches have people who insist on attending church while on vacation?

I was on a long training weekend in a foreign European City, with my work, we were allowed to take our spouses. When we were given time off from training to be with our spouses on Sunday I expressed that I wasn't keen on going to church, my bosses wife (who was also LDS) actually said to me 'What is your problem?' WTF. First job out of uni so I didn't come back with anything - but it's people like that who make me not want to even associate with the church on any level.

When I see news reports about sexual predators I think to myself 'what the hell is wrong with them?' - I don't reserve such questions for people who don't want to sit through 3 hours of church while on vacation.

BTW I still hold most LDS in high regard, just not the pious opinionated feckwits.

pious opinionated feckwits.

I have got to figure out how to use this phrase in SS this Sunday.

redjay wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:33 pm

Korihor wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:02 pm

I think this just falls into false traditions of forefathers. All other Christian sects focus on Easter so we won't. You would think this is their time to shine - Quoting from D&C all the time, "That he lives, for we saw him".
I think this i why they don't think focus on Easter too much. Don't pay attention to resurrected Jesus from 2k years ago. Pay attention to resurrected Jesus from 180 years ago.

This

This has been my experience. I think we cultivate a sanctimonious attitude of "well we celebrate him better through our sacrifices to obey his commandments our whole lives. You guys just throw a hell of a party once or twice a year. We live it in our lives every day! so it's a net win for us." I think the church tries to underscore this with a "meh" attitude towards Easter.

So... Do Pagans get upset that Christians have hijacked all of their "holidays"?

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:50 am So... Do Pagans get upset that Christians have hijacked all of their "holidays"?

Are there major holidays that aren't hijacked from pagans? I suppose Thanksgiving, Labor Day and Indepedence Day are more original.

Corsair wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:27 am

wtfluff wrote: ↑Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:50 am So... Do Pagans get upset that Christians have hijacked all of their "holidays"?

Are there major holidays that aren't hijacked from pagans? I suppose Thanksgiving, Labor Day and Indepedence Day are more original.

Halloween is more of a holiday that pagans use to hijack the Christian churches. Or at least according to some local priest in Italy who had posted a full page in 12pt denouncing the satanic origins of the holiday on the door of his church when I visited!

Mormons don’t understand Easter. Since they don’t practice the Christian tradition of special worship throughout Holy Week, they insist upon wrapping up all the significant events of Holy Week into one service. We quit attending LDS Easter SMs a few years ago. We had grown tired of their Easter talks focusing upon the crucifixion and atonement, (a constant theme throughout the rest of the year), with only a passing reference to His resurrection. We’ve attended a local Community Christian Church because we were assured to be part of a service which celebrated Christ’s resurrection. Today, we thought we would try going to our local SM, just to see if things had improved. Nope! No such luck. Atonement and Crucifixion, ad nauseam. We walked out after the first talk, delivered by the 1C in the SP. (found out it was also stake conference) Ugh!

Today, was stake conference. I didn't go. But my wife told me that they changed stake presidencies.

Im sure it was all about Jesus in the meeting.

The exiting stake President trys to talk like a General authority..you know the ga dialect. Glad he is gone. He was the sp when I resigned. He was kind of an ass when i asked for a private baptism for my daughter. He just followed the handbook of instructions and said no.

Glad i missed the stake conference.

Religious Envy Penguin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:07 pm Postum Sunday
Family Home Evening Monday
Ruby Tuesday
Afternoon Golf Wednesday
Monson Thursday
Thank God it's Friday
Super Saturday
Easter Sunday

I sense by this that you wish we Mormons would have our own equivalent to the traditional Christian Holy Week. Bet you would really get off on a Mormon Mardi Gras with plenty of baklavas and Diet Coke, but how about a Mormon Lent? From my knowledge of your past posts, I would guess that you could willingly forgo beef liver and black licorice, right?

I sense that you are also thinking we could easily replace the Christmas time Stations of the Cross with our own equivalent Stations of the First Vision, in which we ponder the variations of the First Vision.

I guess I have to ask this, but should the church make a big deal out of Easter? The purpose of Easter is to recognize the atonement and resurrection. This is done every sacrament meeting. Seems to me Easter is something of a redundant observation to the LDS church.

I guess I have to ask this, but should the church make a big deal out of Easter? The purpose of Easter is to recognize the atonement and resurrection. This is done every sacrament meeting. Seems to me Easter is something of a redundant observation to the LDS church.

Every church service in Christianity is focused on the atonement. Easter isn't seen as redundant in Christianity, though.

The church's narrative is that Christians don't really focus on Christ. I have found over time and in working in many other churches that the Mormon narrative is dead wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. When I first started working for other churches as a believer I was shocked at just how much more they focus on Christ than Mormons do.

Side rant:

I have a significant issue with the Mormon narrative in this regard. Their view of Christianity is that they don't have their lives centered on Christ but talk about him non-stop. In other words, they grow closer with their lips but their hearts are far away. This is such a horrible teaching, basically saying that everyone outside of Mormonism aren't really Christian nor do they actually believe in Christ. It is part of the first discussion, the first vision, which is trumpeted from the rooftops.

When I was a kid my father never expressed love for my mother. I never once heard him tell her that he loved her. I asked him one day why he never said that he loved her. He told me that he didn't need to because she knew that he loved her. He looked down on people who told their wives they loved her because you had to show it through action. He pointed out clear examples of abusive men who constantly told their wives that they loved them and then would beat them.

It created a narrative for me that when a man continually says "I love you" to his spouse, it means that he is abusive. I still have a difficult time with that narrative even though I found out my father didn't love by action: he was highly abusive to my mother and cheated for decades. My bias always ignored the man who loved his wife both verbally and in action, or ignored the man who never said it and was horrible to his wife. I always picked upon abusive men who said it often and on men who were faithful and good husbands, yet were not "I love you, types".

I see the church's narrative in much the same light. Mormons don't talk of Christ because they are centered on him. Christians talk of Christ all the time because they are not centered on him. But, I ignored all the Mormons I've met who were centered on Joseph Smith and not Christ, I ignored all my Christian friends who were both Christ centered and spoke of him often. I only noticed when Mormons were good Christians who didn't speak often of Christ and jerk Christians who spoke of Christ but were clearly acting not very Christian. That narrative painted my view of Christianity.

Rant over.

It was brought up in my GD class, that the reason we don't celebrate Easter, like other churches, is similar to the reason we don't use the cross as a symbol in our church. Mormons choose to celebrate the life of christ, not the death, take that for what you will I guess, but everybody nodded and seemed to agree.

then In EQ, from the lesson manual GBH shared a experience where he explains why we don't use the cross as a symbol in our church, (basically because we focus on a living christ, not the death of christ) the instructor even mentioned that the cross has always felt kind of taboo growing up, and if he ever saw a person wearing a cross, it was akin to somebody that smoked or drank coffee, you know those "bad" people. I never gave it much thought, but I think he is right, the cross has always been a taboo subject, and kind of seen as evil in the LDS church, I don't think that Easter is seen the same way, but just thought that was an interesting parallel.

It was brought up in my GD class, that the reason we don't celebrate Easter, like other churches, is similar to the reason we don't use the cross as a symbol in our church. Mormons choose to celebrate the life of christ, not the death, take that for what you will I guess, but everybody nodded and seemed to agree.

This is absolutely fascinating.

Even though I disagree with Mormons, I get their aversion to the cross. I get it that the cross is a torture device and if Jesus were hung it would be like putting a noose on your church. I understand that Mormons in general avoid the passion play and in general don't talk about the death of Christ very often. For that reason, I can totally understand their aversion to Good Friday. But even then, Good Friday isn't a celebration of his death but a mourning of his death. There is a reason that black is traditionally worn on Good Friday.

But...Easter is the celebration of life, not the celebration of death. It is the opposite of what everyone was nodding to.

This thread has actually left me more puzzled. I guess I'm too far gone from Mormonism to understand it.

document wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:11 pm

It was brought up in my GD class, that the reason we don't celebrate Easter, like other churches, is similar to the reason we don't use the cross as a symbol in our church. Mormons choose to celebrate the life of christ, not the death, take that for what you will I guess, but everybody nodded and seemed to agree.

This is absolutely fascinating.

Even though I disagree with Mormons, I get their aversion to the cross. I get it that the cross is a torture device and if Jesus were hung it would be like putting a noose on your church. I understand that Mormons in general avoid the passion play and in general don't talk about the death of Christ very often. For that reason, I can totally understand their aversion to Good Friday. But even then, Good Friday isn't a celebration of his death but a mourning of his death. There is a reason that black is traditionally worn on Good Friday.

But...Easter is the celebration of life, not the celebration of death. It is the opposite of what everyone was nodding to.

This thread has actually left me more puzzled. I guess I'm too far gone from Mormonism to understand it.

This comment came from some average joe member in the class, not the instructor, or the manual, and you know how class is (or maybe you don't) but it's all just one big echo chamber, I don't think most people even really listen, they just nod their heads, and dream of the time they can go home, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in that comment, I just thought it was interesting. (man am I getting cynical or what)

LostMormon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:58 pm ....the instructor even mentioned that the cross has always felt kind of taboo growing up, and if he ever saw a person wearing a cross, it was akin to somebody that smoked or drank coffee, you know those "bad" people. I never gave it much thought, but I think he is right, the cross has always been a taboo subject, and kind of seen as evil in the LDS church...

FYI: In the military, LDS chaplains (ordained High Priests in high visibility positions) wear the cross on their uniform in order to be recognized and identified as Christian chaplains. LDS Military Relations, (GA directed) had the chance years ago to switch from the Cross to an angel Moroni insignia, so service members would know their chaplain happened to be a Mormon, vs a Christian chaplain. LDS MR decided to stick with the cross.

LostMormon wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:56 pm

document wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:11 pm

It was brought up in my GD class, that the reason we don't celebrate Easter, like other churches, is similar to the reason we don't use the cross as a symbol in our church. Mormons choose to celebrate the life of christ, not the death, take that for what you will I guess, but everybody nodded and seemed to agree.

This is absolutely fascinating.

Even though I disagree with Mormons, I get their aversion to the cross. I get it that the cross is a torture device and if Jesus were hung it would be like putting a noose on your church. I understand that Mormons in general avoid the passion play and in general don't talk about the death of Christ very often. For that reason, I can totally understand their aversion to Good Friday. But even then, Good Friday isn't a celebration of his death but a mourning of his death. There is a reason that black is traditionally worn on Good Friday.

But...Easter is the celebration of life, not the celebration of death. It is the opposite of what everyone was nodding to.

This thread has actually left me more puzzled. I guess I'm too far gone from Mormonism to understand it.

This comment came from some average joe member in the class, not the instructor, or the manual, and you know how class is (or maybe you don't) but it's all just one big echo chamber, I don't think most people even really listen, they just nod their heads, and dream of the time they can go home, I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in that comment, I just thought it was interesting. (man am I getting cynical or what)

Are we in the same ward?
I don't agree about it being an echo chamber, it's just that correlated material hits the resonant frequency.
EQ turned from the Hinckley manual quote to a debate about who is really Christian
A few guys stuck their necks out saying that anyone who says they are Christian is a Christian, and got slammed by others who just. had. to. insist. that we mormons are the true church of Christ and that all the others are just people who say they are Christian but aren't really. In the end, non-members were granted the right to be Christians also, albeit lesser ones.

I remember reading somewhere that the lds aversion of the cross actually comes from the 19th century protestant aversion to it. Many non Catholic churches at the time had an aversion to crosses, pictures, etc feeling it bordered to close to idolatry they saw on the Catholic churches, as well as a flaunting of wealth they didn't have. All the usual "focus on his life" ect to explain why Mormons don't use the cross we hear today came from this mind set and time and was as likely to be heard from a frontier baptist as a Mormon.
We became isolated from the rest the world in the SL valley, and as the rest the world moved on from the topic, we didn't because like many other topics there was no mixing of new ideas into the culture. Some lds chapels in the valley did use it sparingly in the early 20th century, but some gas (I know Harold b lee was one) felt it was wrong because of what he had been taught as a child -- namely those 19th century protestant ideas-- And those ideas worked their way into correlation so today wearing the international sign of christians is shunned in favor of a CTR ring because frontier churches couldn't afford big crosses for congregations to pray in front of.

document wrote: ↑Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:54 am

I guess I have to ask this, but should the church make a big deal out of Easter? The purpose of Easter is to recognize the atonement and resurrection. This is done every sacrament meeting. Seems to me Easter is something of a redundant observation to the LDS church.

Every church service in Christianity is focused on the atonement. Easter isn't seen as redundant in Christianity, though.

Perhaps it should though. I've never understood holiday focus in any christian form of worship. Perhaps I could understand passover as it actually is in the scripture, but christmas and easter are merely traditions. Worship how you want, but I don't see non-observanvce of holidays as an issue.

This thread has really weighed on my mind. I actually had a dream about this thread. This is going to be a long response, so bare with me.

This statement was made: "Worship how you want, but I don't see non-observanvce of holidays as an issue." I don't see non-observance of Easter as an issue, but I do find it odd. It took me a few days to figure out really why this has been running through my mind.

I'm a heterosexual male. I dress well for work and have fabulous hair. I associate with women better than men. I talk with my hands. Some of my interests are theater, opera, classical music, literature, and poetry. My other interests I don't really talk about much because they aren't interesting to people (PC gaming, anime, comic books, etc.). I use words like "fabulous" and "splendid". I don't date or have relationships because of crippling OCD, so I never have a girlfriend. My personality is that of flirtation, no matter the gender. So, I could very well flirt with a man without realizing it.

People who don't know me well make an assumption that I'm gay. This _used_ to drive me nuts and I would rant and rage over the fact that people made an assumption based upon arbitrary information but wouldn't look at the core issue, that is that I am heterosexual and am physically attracted to women.

Then I grew up. I looked in the mirror and realized that from the casual observer, I have a lot of the things that are stereotypical gay. I set off gaydars merely by my language, my hand gestures, and my interests. I can't get mad at other people for making an assumption based off of the information that they are given. Now, when someone asks if I'm gay or expresses surprise that I have 4 children, I will correct but not get upset.

I see Mormons in much the same way. They talk non-stop about Joseph Smith. They don't have crosses on their buildings denoting a Christian church. Their leadership does not wear liturgical garb or a collar. The name of their church (to most outsiders) is "The Mormon Church". Their symbol is a golden man with a trumpet (I won't say angel, because Moroni splits from traditional depictions of angels). They don't really celebrate the major feast days of Christianity.

Much like me, where my mannerisms screamed "gay", the mannerisms of Mormonism scream "Not Christian". Yet, Mormons get really, really, really upset if someone assumes that they aren't Christian. The thing is, it took a look in the mirror for me to realize WHY people thought I was gay. But Mormons don't really do that introspection. They get upset and offended when people assume they aren't Christian. I've heard several Mormons say that to assume a Mormon is not a Christian is HATE SPEECH.

So when this statement was made:

Worship how you want, but I don't see non-observanvce of holidays as an issue.

I couldn't figure out for a while why this struck such a nerve with me. Why this issue?

It's because you have a group that reject all the stereotypes of Christianity and then become OFFENDED when people assume they are not Christian. If they just said, "Oh, we are Christian and here is why" rather than "THAT IS HATE SPEECH!", I wouldn't really care. At least, I don't think I would. I don't have an issue with Jehovah's Witnesses or 7th Day Adventists who run into the same problem of being called "not Christian".

It's more a pet peeve than anything. Although, when I started the thread, I didn't know what was at the root of why I was asking. Thanks for questioning me, Mad Jax, I learned a lot about myself. Because of the questions you have brought forward, it is a "huh, this drives me nuts".

So, thanks!