NOM

Almost thou persuadest me...but then apathy kicks in and my lack of desire to do anything church related overrules any desire I might have to try to make a difference. A dog barking at a moving train...

But I applaud your efforts. May the odds be ever in your favor.

Also thinking of voting opposed, have discussed with Mrs RJ (she is TM - the B is wavering). But not sure how much of my desire to speak out is my subconscious trying to force confrontation and bring everything to a head and see me riding off into the sunset more quickly than my conscious slow fade, partial activity plan.

I thought about voting opposed at my first ward conference after the AnyOpposed group made their GC opposition. I completely agree and sympathize with the reasons behind voting opposed. Additionally, my wife happened to be working the Sunday of ward conference, I was there alone with the kids and DW's wrath would have at least been delayed.

When the moment came, I kept my hand firmly in my lap when they asked for the sustaining vote, but when they asked if there were any opposed, my hand remained firmly in my lap.

I hadn't discussed it with my wife, and I didn't want to cause a stir in the ward without her there and without her prior knowledge. You responded to your mom's warning about the consequences that you are happy to meet with the SP. I also wasn't worried about being called in to discuss things with leadership. I had already had discussions with my bishop. I was, however, concerned with making my family a pariah in the ward. The social implications were more than I was willing to put on my family. Honestly, a move like that probably would have ended my marriage at that time.

That voting strategy has worked for me since that time. I don't sustain the general authorities, but for the sake of my marriage and family, I don't vote opposed. Sounds like Mrs. Kish-ihor is on board, and you're not stupid people, but having to meet with your stake president isn't only possible consequence. How ready is your whole family to leave the church? Because I don't see it being a very comfortable place for very long.

shadow wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:11 pm Sounds like Mrs. Kish-ihor is on board, and you're not stupid people, but having to meet with your stake president isn't only possible consequence. How ready is your whole family to leave the church? Because I don't see it being a very comfortable place for very long.

We're ready.

GoodBoy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:19 pm Some people stay and fight and prove that they are right and their friends and family are wrong. These people may be able to do some good if nothing else to show that all is not well in Zion. Sometimes trying to prove people wrong, however, makes them grip the tighter to their positions.

My personal plan is to treat my TBM family with love, respect, and even admiration where it is warranted, but to simply fade and stop letting the church control me in any way.

I love the opposed vote but I must say that I cowardly fall into this situation. But I respect what you are going to do!!! Good luck!

Meilingkie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:27 pm Kori, you got some balls sir.
You definitely do.

Says the guy who was just on Mormon Stories bearing all to the world.

Both of you, please keep us posted on your outcomes.

No pushback yet, total silence.
Therefore Kori has balls. I am sitting behind a camera, he´s sitting next to a live bomb called a SP

Done

You can't just say done.

We await the rest of the story.

Yeah, what does "Done" mean? Any fallout?

I suppose this is relatively nothing and a big deal at the same time. Funny how that works.

Mrs Kori's parents, sister and Grandma are in town visiting us. Initially, they were going to attend with us, but things didn't work out that way and only Mrs Kori and I attended. So that was kinda nice we didn't have the weight of added attention of family. Just before leaving out the door to go to the church, MRs Kori said she wasn't going to do it since the risk of losing what few friends she has in the ward was highly jeopardized. But she simply wouldn't vote at all. I was OK with this, just glad she was still OK with me doing it.

We arrived to church and sat on a side bench near-ish the front. They did the normal ward business, etc. everything normal. One of the High Priests got up and started to do the votes. My heart was pounding, it's go time.

The read the names and vote for TSM, HBE and DFU. "Any opposed?" I raise my arm straight and tall for all to see. Mrs Kori works up some gusto and raises her hand shoulder height. SHE DID IT TOO!
Q12 - same thing
All other GA's - same thing - raise that hand with pride.

Right after our vote opposed to the 1Prez, the SP is staring at us. The BP can't see as a coincidence of line of sight behind the podium. The BP1C is slightly stunned too. The guy reading the names simply says "It has been noted" after our opposing votes. He seemed to be caught a bit off guard, but plays it pretty cool, IMHO.

For all local leadership, we vote to sustain. The 5 guys on the front of the stand keep looking at us occasionally. After the votes, it's sacrament followed by talks from the BP, SP1C and SP2C. Nothing really abnormal. I don't think those sitting in front of us had any idea. I don't know what those sitting behind us did cause I have no idea, I just did my thing.

After SM, Mrs Kori needed to answer the call of nature. We weren't going to stay since we have family at home, but I wanted to stay if I could. I walked up to the BP to talk briefly. I passed the BP1C and he just said "Hi". He seemed rather uncomfortable and didn't know what to say.

I get to the BP and we smile genuinely and shake hands. He really is a good guy, and I feel bad in that he has to be one to go through this. I don't want to burden him unnecessarily, but it is what it is. Walk talk briefly. Since he couldn't see us directly, I said "I supposed they mentioned to you how we voted." He confirms says "It's ok, we're good (as in he knows it's nothing personal to him)"

I said something like, we can talk about it. He then somewhat interrupts and says "Since you have an opposition to the First Presidency, I should probably get your TR's". I was taken about. This was his first real concern in our brief exchange. I said "I understand, and you do what you gotta do, but maybe we could talk first and we explain our decision before you decide to take our TR's" He agrees and says the BP Secretary will contact us soon to schedule a meeting. I mention I would like to stay for the rest of the sunday school, but we have family in town and can't stay. He shake hands again and depart.

In the car ride home, I tell Mrs Kori about my conversation with the BP and she is livid the first thing he thinks to do is take away our TR's. To her this is confirmation this church is as messed up as she feared. She says "He has no right to take away our TR's". I remind he he actually has the right to do it, technically speaking, but it is morally wrong to do it. She says, "since when did morals matter?"

We get home, the family is all here. Everyone but grandma knows what why we went and what we did. Mrs Kori and her mom had a long talk while I played outside with the kids. They were getting into it and both had tears. I'll follow up later with her what they talked about, but I'm not likely to post it here. It isn't my conversation to share.

Anyway, that's that. We've outed ourselves and there aint no turning back. Be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few weeks. Easter Sunday is our Stake Conference and we'll probably do the same thing again.

EDIT - The special mini choir song was "we thank thee o god for a profit"
Talks given were about Obedience, Only true happiness in gospel, and I don't recall the last one.

Oh no. Not the TR?

That means you can't go to the multi million dollar movie theater and cos playhouse. What will you now do for Friday night date nights?

So without even finding out what the issue specifically is, they ask for your TR? This just irritates the crap out of me about the church. They ask if any are opposed, and if anyone is, the first thing they do is ignore or punish the person who answers the question they asked! Why do they even bother to ask?! If they don't want to deal with anyone potentially opposing, why ask the question?

I applaud your effort Korihor to demonstrate that all is not well in Zion.

So the game becomes more serious.
Bro Korihor threatens the king and the bishop takes Kori's castle.

Between Melingkies MS interview and your open objection I'm feeling like the cowardly lion

I hope the satisfaction grows to become true freedom from the corp. sounds like you're on your way.

Don't be surprised when the "fine" of your TR blossoms to a Spanish Inquisition like process when they visit to clarify your reasoning.

Good on ya mate.

My TR expires soon and I've been toying with the idea of being honest. Like, "I need a recommend to do my calling/be at family functions but I'm not a believer like I used to be." And then see what they do.

But now I think that means no TR and I don't know how I feel about it. Yay to get released but bummer as it will potentially impact my family and my ability to support them at the temple.

Also I live in a very Mormon place. Could make things awkward if it were to get around. But sheesh, lying is better? Cause that's what I'll have to do in the TR interview.

Congratulations for standing up for what you believe in. Not surprising that's the result, although it's rather bizarre that the first reaction is to punish you, rather than to find out why you voted the way you did. I guess when you're dealing with an authoritarian institution, that's the first reaction. Pretty much illustrates that the "voting" is simply a rubber stamp, and you have no right to dissent. The law of common consent is rendered an impotent and quaint 19th century relic. It's too bad.

You may or may not care, but in the cult pod (ward) where I live in there would be two immediate consequences to your actions. Number 1: kiss your "underwear privldge card" (temple recommend) adios. And (2) immediate membership in the boat rockers club. Please be careful.

I don't understand why they don't just change the policy of sustaining votes.

When people vote no tbms get all fired up and pissed off. If they don't want to hear any no votes don't do it anymore. Because everyone knows that it's just a formality. The practice makes meetings longer and intensifies the extreme boredom.

Your bishop jumping straight to taking your TR away is as unsurprising as it is disturbing. This is Orwellian stuff. How was I blind to this before?

A church that pays lip service to common consent spends 10 minutes in a meeting where they ask everyone to either vote to sustain or oppose various positions. The reaction to sustaining votes is a feeling that everyone is on board and God leads the church. The reaction to opposing votes is that the people voting opposed are rabble-rousers led astray by Satan and they are then kicked out of full participation, and all the good people are on board and God leads the church. It is a show, and a mockery of the idea of common consent.

If the LDS church were serious about common consent it would encourage voting your conscience and have clear rules for what would happen if certain percentages voted opposed, and how to handle each opposing vote. There would be no kicking out. But the LDS church can't do that because the cornerstone of the church is that it is true, including and especially the leadership and how they are chosen.

Good luck in the next phase of your journey Kori and fam!

I wonder what the consequences would be if you didn't have a current recommend. At that point what is left to "get" you with? Disciplinary council and disfellowshipment? Released from your calling which you probably don't want anyway?