NOM

Mormorrisey wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:09 pm We had that horrible lesson on Joseph and Emma's marriage today, and I played on my phone until it was over. But then we talked about pride and forgiveness, and how it's pride that stops us from "forgiving" people. One young sister opined on what to do though, when we are faced with challenging people that abuse and torment us? I quickly put up my hand and offered the idea that NO ONE should be abused, tormented or exploited, and that there are in fact toxic people that we need to construct boundaries around for our own mental health. As the ward pariah, no one saw fit to disagree, but I know there are people who HATED that answer. I repeated it in HP, when a brother talked about how he needed to forgive someone who ripped him off. I put up my hand, and asked him if he ever had this man as a customer again? When he said absolutely not, I reiterated what I said in SS, that when it's family members doing the abuse, we need to do the same thing, and create boundaries so as not to be abused or taken advantage of. Again, crickets.

But I thought of this thread, and you as well document, for people who understand that the church is NOT a safe place, that forgiveness is NOT always the answer, and that we need to distance ourselves from abusive people in our past. As long as abuse is minimized, the perpetrators allowed to do these things in silence and with tacit consent of church doctrines like this, I will do my best to speak up. Almost worth going to church today. Almost. Well, not really.

This. Is. So. True!

I testify of the truthfulness of it.

[Complete rewrite, because this is better]

I have actually soapboxed this in a similar manner IRL. This is close to what I said, but can be adapted to individual circumstances.

By letting this person into my life, I sinned. The Spirit told me this wasn't a good person and I ignored that prompting, because he held the priesthood and a temple recommend. I sinned against God and his teaching that I am His daughter. I sinned against my children when I let them be abused for so long. Part of the repentance process is apologizing to those you've offended, which I've done, including myself. The next step is to make a commitment to not repeat that mistake. If I let this person back into my life, it will negate all of the repenting I've done. To keep myself on the straight and narrow, I will be keeping my distance from that person and I have learned what I need to know to recognize others like that person.

I won't be using self soothing statements like "he's a full tithe payer" to silence the Spirit. I will be setting firmer boundaries in the future. This will deter a lot of people. Forgiveness is the gift to myself of not letting that pain own me anymore and my own personal repentance will keep him and those like him and his allies out of my life.

Well, update. It turns out the local leadership didn't allow us to go into the chapel because another ward was still in the building. Apparently the organist who arranged it felt that it was OK because nobody was using it. That person backed out and asked permission and it was denied.

So, we went to the Lutheran church down the street then skipped right on down to the Episcopal church. We had fun and all my hand wringing this week was over nothing. *sigh*

document wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:41 pm Well, update. It turns out the local leadership didn't allow us to go into the chapel because another ward was still in the building. Apparently the organist who arranged it felt that it was OK because nobody was using it. That person backed out and asked permission and it was denied.

So, we went to the Lutheran church down the street then skipped right on down to the Episcopal church. We had fun and all my hand wringing this week was over nothing. *sigh*

Actually, you have quite the arsenal of tools, here. They are for your use. They are for the use of anyone who reads this thread. You did a good thing.

We had that horrible lesson on Joseph and Emma's marriage today, and I played on my phone until it was over. But then we talked about pride and forgiveness, and how it's pride that stops us from "forgiving" people. One young sister opined on what to do though, when we are faced with challenging people that abuse and torment us? I quickly put up my hand and offered the idea that NO ONE should be abused, tormented or exploited, and that there are in fact toxic people that we need to construct boundaries around for our own mental health. As the ward pariah, no one saw fit to disagree, but I know there are people who HATED that answer. I repeated it in HP, when a brother talked about how he needed to forgive someone who ripped him off. I put up my hand, and asked him if he ever had this man as a customer again? When he said absolutely not, I reiterated what I said in SS, that when it's family members doing the abuse, we need to do the same thing, and create boundaries so as not to be abused or taken advantage of. Again, crickets.

I've shared my story here many times about my "relative" who was involved with some sick stuff that I discovered on his computer while helping my mother out. I went to the police and the bishop chastised me and I eventually lost my temple recommend for a person because my conduct against my family was not something that a temple recommend holder should do. I was "unforgiving" and I was not "honoring my father". That relative was my father, and it was the start of a very long journey. It was the first time that I lost respect and belief that local leadership was to be trusted and had the spirit.

No matter what, the church continually taught me that I was in the wrong for cutting my father out of my life. They taught me forgiveness again and again, and that forgiveness meant bringing my father back in my life. My dad would write me letters calling me names, and calling me out for being a bad member of the church because I wouldn't forgive him. Later, when I found out that my dad was teaching youth, in the age group that he sought out, I wrote a letter to his bishop (not in anger, but saying that the church was taking a big risk and should consider the children when giving callings to someone who is under investigation for child pornography) and the stake president called me in and told me that I had lost the spirit because of my unforgiving heart.

My father never once received church discipline. The church rallied around him. I was disciplined in the form of losing my temple recommend because I didn't forgive him. He was friends with the leadership, I was not. He manipulated them, I did not.

Years later, when I started attending and working for another church, I attended a choir retreat and drove to the campsite with the priest. It was a 3 hour drive and we talked about religion. On the way back, I spilled the beans about what happened to me. The priest said something along the lines of, "To forgive is not to forget. To forgive is to let go of the hatred in your heart and move on with life. Jesus didn't say that you are to forgive and hand your children over to a dangerous man, but he did say that if you offend the children it is better for a millstone to be wrapped around your neck and be drowned at the bottom of the sea. Turn the other cheek means to not return the blow, it doesn't mean stick around and let the person continually beat them. Be meek, don't strike back, and walk away".

In the LDS church, especially according to the local leadership, not forgiving was a far greater sin than anything my father did. This is a great environment to keep an unhealthy relationship alive and well. I know a woman who went in with a husband beating her and the bishop gave her a copy of "The Proper and Feeding of Husbands" by Dr. Laura, which pretty much placed all the blame on her. I know a woman who went in with a husband cheating on her and the bishop's response was to talk to her about staying with her husband. I know many of these people.

The church seems to be this way because it seeks action against those who talk, rather than those who act. In other words, if you go in and confess to pornography usage, the bishop calls you repentance. If your wife goes in and tells on her husband for the same, but the husband denies it, the bishop will tell the wife to repent.. If you go in and confess that you've had an affair, the bishop calls you to repentance. If a husband accuses his wife of an affair and she denies it, the bishops calls the husband to repentance. Likewise, and I've seen this with more bishops than I care to admit, if a child goes in and tells a bishop their father is molesting them and the father denies it, the bishop calls the child to repentance.

In the whole debacle with my father, my bishop told me that "the church doesn't work that way, it is a confessional church". From the horses mouth, if you tell them something and the other denies it, you are in trouble.

Now, what if they just said without calling anyone to repentance, "I'm sorry this has happened to you, let's figure out how you can improve your life" or in the case of abuse, "I'm sorry this has happened to you, let's see about getting your counseling from a professional".

What a great place for an abuser to live.

Funny enough, after I wrote up my last post I went for my morning run. My podcast was the Mormon Funeral from Infants on Thrones. Bob's sister's description of going into the chapel made me chuckle, because while mine is distinctly different of a feeling of a "bad place", it is similar to mine.

It made me feel, I guess, not alone?

wow...i JUST READ THIS. It is similar to some of what I had growing up.

On my mission, I remember reading Alma and a "contra-positive" logical statement in there:

Alma 26:22

22 Yea, he that repenteth and exerciseth faith, and bringeth forth good works, and prayeth continually without ceasing—unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed; yea, and it shall be given unto such to bring thousands of souls to repentance, even as it has been given unto us to bring these our brethren to repentance.

The logic goes like this:

If you repent --> Bring thousands to repentance "if and only if" You don't bring thousands --> means you didn't repent.

The Book of Mormon is filled with logic, but it proves to be false. I know people who repented, but they didn't bring thousands. And, that idea reinforces the guild and shame you mentioned--always being beat up.

IF YOU JUST WOULD KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS AND HAVE FAITH....YOU WOULD BE SUCCESSFUL.

Yeh, right.

That's a very interesting perspective, Doc. The church punishes the snitch. Even if the person being "ratted out"' admits it, the bishop has in his arsenal punishing the snitch.

I've been thinking about the discussion on forgiveness all day. This is such an important topic. I don't think the doctrine of forgiveness is wrong. I believe the way we teach it and the place we give it in our culture is wrong. This has so much possibility for harm, that if someone left the church over this one issue, I would probably stand and applaud.

What I have to say on this is so vast, from apologizing to forgiveness to letting go of pain, I could probably write a short book. What is sticking out in my mind, today, is the following anecdote and information. Abusers know that Mormons are morally obligated to forgive everyone. Christ will forgive whom he forgives, but of us, it is required we forgive everyone. I have seen this scripture used three times to I'll effect. This one story is the most blatant.

I knew a man who's standard practice would be to take financial advantage of people--especially Mormons. He would make the whole thing look like a misunderstanding and the agrieved party would apologise for their end of the misunderstanding and conflict. He would accept their apology, but wouldn't apologise or make any effort to make amends in return. When the agrieved party would point out that it's social protocol and a sign of emotional maturity for him to apologise for his part in the misunderstanding and the negative outcome, he would say that the agrieved party should have known better. Then he'd walk off leaving the other person fuming. He'd allow time to pass--usually three years--without any further contact with the people he'd shafted. Then he'd call, write or visit out of the blue and ask for more money for some other scheme. His former victims would always refuse and he would always respond, "but you're Mormon, you're supposed to forgive".

Abusers know this doctrine. They know it is misinterpreted and that it makes Mormons vulnerable and that it isn't changing any time, soon. Easy pickins.