NOM

EternityIsNow wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:39 pmI do think this is a game changer, but in an unpredictable way.

I think you're right.

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 amAlso wonder how their annual accounting report in conference will change.

I thought they stopped reporting that in general conference, and that you had to go to the Church's website to get the noninformation now?

Random wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:28 pm

Just This Guy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:29 amAlso wonder how their annual accounting report in conference will change.

I thought they stopped reporting that in general conference, and that you had to go to the Church's website to get the noninformation now?

They stopped announcing membership statistics. but once a year they still announce that they have done a full accounting and that they are happy with the results. Since there is no information given I doubt anyone will care much if they drop the pretense altogether.

I hope justice is served. But I hope so not just for this rich organization but so many others who abuse nonprofit status to avoid taxes and thereby put the burden on those more honest.

Newme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:31 am I hope justice is served. But I hope so not just for this rich organization but so many others who abuse nonprofit status to avoid taxes and thereby put the burden on those more honest.

Amen!

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:05 pmThey stopped announcing membership statistics. but once a year they still announce that they have done a full accounting and that they are happy with the results. Since there is no information given I doubt anyone will care much if they drop the pretense altogether.

Oh, okay. I agree with you. The nonreporting wouldn't be missed, since they say essentially nothing but, "We're good, carry on."

Newme wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:31 am I hope justice is served. But I hope so not just for this rich organization but so many others who abuse nonprofit status to avoid taxes and thereby put the burden on those more honest.

and, especially, a huge burden on the poorest of the members.

I've struggled with what I think about the $100B and the church stockpiling money. In some ways it is pretty awesome that the church is able to do that. It wasn't that long ago when the church was struggling to stay afloat financially. And while the top guys get paid ~$120,000/year, there doesn't appear to be any evidence that they are tapping into the BILLIONS $$$$ that is sitting there for their own personal gain.

My beef with the situation comes with the utter lack of transparency. The church demands money in the name of God from children, widows, underemployed, and starving people with the threat of eternal damnation. They demand it while sitting on a giant pile of cash that no one knew about. They insinuate that they are a seriously charitable organization without providing receipts. They act poor when someone requests help (Zimbabwe). Since the church stopped needing the money they spend all their breath proclaiming the blessing of paying tithing. These people should at least have the ability to access some basic financial information so they can decide if they agree that God needs them to give their money to the church.

I suspect that the biggest fallout from this will be that when a TBM goes to God in prayer about tithing many more will get the answer that God doesn't need them to pay as much.

And it is gross how the church only performs masturbatory charitable acts. The only group they are really helping is themselves.

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:45 pm And it is gross how the church only performs masturbatory charitable acts. The only group they are really helping is themselves.

Maybe its just me and my cynical mind, but I think most (not all) charitable acts are masturbatory in some form or another. Do people give because it makes them feel good? Because it fits with what they view of their personality? Because they want to honor some dead person? Because it helps their tribe? Dont get me wrong, I appreciate charity but if you negatively view charitable acts that seem to help the person doing it you will be ruling out a large bit of charity that happens.

Emower wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:53 pm

Linked wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:45 pm And it is gross how the church only performs masturbatory charitable acts. The only group they are really helping is themselves.

Maybe its just me and my cynical mind, but I think most (not all) charitable acts are masturbatory in some form or another. Do people give because it makes them feel good? Because it fits with what they view of their personality? Because they want to honor some dead person? Because it helps their tribe? Dont get me wrong, I appreciate charity but if you negatively view charitable acts that seem to help the person doing it you will be ruling out a large bit of charity that happens.

That's an interesting point. Yes, being charitable typically benefits the giver, in the ways you have mentioned and probably more. Let's pretend we are economists. Maybe it would be better to use a difference of Help to the Receiver (HR) to Cost to the Giver (CG) or perhaps HR - Help to the Giver (HG) as a metric. HR-CG, HR-HG. Or perhaps we could use a single value of Net Help to the Giver (HGnet) where the cost to the giver is subtracted. A very high HR - HGnet would be a selfless charitable act, and a very negative HR - HGnet would be a masturbatory charitable act. This requires normalizing the value of money, time, emotional state, relationships, etc; good luck.

My issue is that the church spends very little (i.e. nothing, because they spend their members time and money) on things which do little to objectively help others, and most of the "good" things they do are meant to also help themselves. And it is gross. This all changes if you believe the church is the only path to heaven. Which is the most insidious part.

Compare this to someone who gets praised for really helping people. I pick Donovan Mitchell who plays basketball for the Utah Jazz. He was chatting with some kids after a game and he took the Beats headphones off of his head and put it on the kids head. The kid actually benefited. Donovan did too, his public and personal image got better. The headphones cost ~$200 (they could be part of a sponsorship deal, but he still could have turned it into $ if he wanted to). Donovan gives his signed warm up shoes away to a kid almost every game. The kid gets a once in a lifetime experience and a sweet souvenir. Donovan loses 30 seconds and his image gains. But as little as it costs him, this isn't something many people do.

I initially thought that this whole $100b revelation would have little to no impact on TBMs. However, I perused the LDS Freedom Fighters forum today and was surprised to see a decent amount of concern expressed on the issue, mainly in terms of little charitable giving and transparency. I thought this was a pretty TBM'ish forum or am I wrong?

Emower wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:53 pm
Maybe its just me and my cynical mind, but I think most (not all) charitable acts are masturbatory in some form or another.

This may be true in some cases but as you say, it's certainly not in all. There are people who when they see others suffer they want to help out of the goodness or compassion of their hearts because they know what suffering is. They have been there themselves. They don't care whether the world sees what they do and gain nothing except the knowledge that they have relieved suffering for someone.

I suppose a cynic could say that the good Samaritan went away patting himself on the back but wouldn't that be projecting one's own character flaws onto someone they didn't even know?

I don't disagree that the institutional church probably does numerous things for it's own benefit and interest but I would hesitate to judge individuals with the extremely limited knowledge available to me.

Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 11:06 pm I suppose a cynic could say that the good Samaritan went away patting himself on the back but wouldn't that be projecting one's own character flaws onto someone they didn't even know?

Oooooh, sick burn! But yeah, you are right. It is entirely unknowable what a person is doing charity for, even the church, IMO. I think it is possible to form an opinion about the church's charitable giving and whether it was genuine or not based on a track record, but we would need to know the full extent and I have not done that kind of research into the church's 2.2 billion that they have given away. The church also does not make it easy to find out.

Remember when Rusty went to visit the Pope and brought him those cheap, crappy presents? I wonder how the Pope feels now, knowing how f--ing loaded Rusty really is.

Or probably he still doesn't care about Mormons.

MoPag wrote:Remember when Rusty went to visit the Pope and brought him those cheap, crappy presents? I wonder how the Pope feels now, knowing how f--ing loaded Rusty really is.

Or probably he still doesn't care about Mormons. [emoji38]

But that bike the next visitors brought totally overshadowed the mo gifts. [emoji1787]

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:42 pm

MoPag wrote:Remember when Rusty went to visit the Pope and brought him those cheap, crappy presents? I wonder how the Pope feels now, knowing how f--ing loaded Rusty really is.

Or probably he still doesn't care about Mormons. [emoji38]

But that bike the next visitors brought totally overshadowed the mo gifts. [emoji1787]

Right?! Like I bet he was all "oh this little church gave me a little Jesus and a proclamation I can't read." **smiles and nods**

Later finds out they have literal 100 BILLION dollars. "WTF cheap a$$ Mormons!"

MoPag wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 4:40 pmOr probably he still doesn't care about Mormons.

Kinda like ~99% of all the other humans on the planet?

Arcturus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:54 pm I initially thought that this whole $100b revelation would have little to no impact on TBMs. However, I perused the LDS Freedom Fighters forum today and was surprised to see a decent amount of concern expressed on the issue, mainly in terms of little charitable giving and transparency. I thought this was a pretty TBM'ish forum or am I wrong?

There are now a lot of people on there who are not TBM, but there were some on there that I know are TBM who were questioning the $100B. In fact, over the last year or so, I've seen some people get a little shaken in their firmness because of something or other the SL leaders have done/said. And I know that some other TBMs (not on LDSFF) were shaken a bit (family and/or friends of people I know).

Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:05 pm ... once a year they still announce that they have done a full accounting and that they are happy with the results.

They rub their hands together and say "Excellent!" when they contemplate the Ensign Peak accounts.

moksha wrote: ↑Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:22 am They rub their hands together and say "Excellent!" when they contemplate the Ensign Peak accounts.