NOM

Emower wrote: ↑Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:02 pm it could be consecrated oil coming out......Eh, never mind.

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:02 pm Years ago we were hashing out what the internet was going to do to the church. Most of us took an optimistic bent and said when the truth flows out of our websites, the world is gonna sit up and take notice. My goodness the church has been in full reverse mode now for over a flippin decade! And apologetics? FAIR is about all there is and it has done more damage than help because anyone who asked questions was lambasted immediately as enemies. Just weird of them to do that. But then again, when you are on defense you view everyone as your enemy. This paranoia is starting to cost them dearly. The problem is FAIR put on so much information of so many problems that it overwhelmed everyone, everyone including myself. We knew there were going to be a few problems that we could mop up in just a few pages. But when the questions and ideas kept coming out, and THEN how the official church was handling things, and what they were saying, we just couldn't keep up with it all.

Apologeticsislying wrote:Yeah when I say we, I am speaking of FAIR. I am one of its original founders, Kerry Shirts. Well, the church did try the I am a Mormon campaign, but still, for every Mormon online, there are an overwhelmingly number of responders who just see through the bullroar anymore. Me? I'm just a little slow on the uptake, but sure enough, attempting for long enough to drink the Kool Aid kinda like ruined my digestion... [emoji38]

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:33 am ....there are an overwhelmingly number of responders who just see through the bullroar anymore. Me? I'm just a little slow on the uptake, but sure enough, attempting for long enough to drink the Kool Aid kinda like ruined my digestion...

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:33 am Yeah when I say we, I am speaking of FAIR. I am one of its original founders, Kerry Shirts. Well, the church did try the I am a Mormon campaign, but still, for every Mormon online, there are an overwhelmingly number of responders who just see through the bullroar anymore. Me? I'm just a little slow on the uptake, but sure enough, attempting for long enough to drink the Kool Aid kinda like ruined my digestion...

FiveFingerMnemonic wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:50 am

Apologeticsislying wrote:Yeah when I say we, I am speaking of FAIR. I am one of its original founders, Kerry Shirts. Well, the church did try the I am a Mormon campaign, but still, for every Mormon online, there are an overwhelmingly number of responders who just see through the bullroar anymore. Me? I'm just a little slow on the uptake, but sure enough, attempting for long enough to drink the Kool Aid kinda like ruined my digestion... [emoji38]

Welcome Kerry! Cool to see you contributing here.

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 am I understand your sentiment, but I think you are mistaken in some respect Pale Rider...

What is a church for actually? It is an organization which is supposed to help individuals gain access to God. It is, to use one of the most spectacular phrases I have ever read, supposed to help make us transparent to transcendence. But what does that mean? It means it is supposed to get individuals to God, to keep it on the lowdown mundane level, even though spiritually that is a magnificent order!
But, the Mormon church has nothing to do with the individual anymore, if it ever did at all. It is all about obedience to them. It is all about obedience to authority. It is all about worthiness and obedience in that worthiness to others who control your salvation. And, truth be told, that dog don't hunt. It can't. Here is why.

Salvation is entirely, utterly, and singularly ALWAYS based on an individual, not a group. And, salvation cannot have an in-between, no matter what or who that intermediary is, between the individual and God. The idea of a church is to expand, set up, work with, and help the individual gain salvation for himself or herself, not worry about tithes, offerings, building buildings, etc. And the great clue which Mormonism utterly ignores, almost totally entirely, is John 17. The Great intercessory prayer of Jesus.

In that prayer there is no talk of church, there is no talk of worshipping Jesus. There is no talk of worshipping God. There is no talk of tithes, missionary work, nothing which Mormonism stands for. Yet, it is the only and entire reason for our lives. To BECOME ***ONE*** with God as Jesus is. Now this is not fiddlesticks or playing Monopoly kind of silliness, this is the entire theme of the most antique religious view in existence, the Perennial Philosophy, whose best expositors have always been the Eastern gurus, until Jesus showed up...

He told the plain and singular blunt Zen-Like truth, THOU ART THAT. And that was his prayer and his entire reason for even showing up on earth. To get us to change our focus just enough to realize that we already are what we are supposed to become, we just don't know. And what is it that we are? The very Ground of Being of all existence, as is everyone else, and everything else. It is the non-dual ONE of which we many, all of us, and all things, ARE. The One and the Many is the most excited, yet exacerbating philosophical conundrum in our human thinking history. It's supposed to be. It's O.K. that we don't get it. But it's NOT O.K. to ignore it, and not try, or continue accepting when other groups and organizations tell you you are not that, but we'll let you in heaven if you do this and that, and think this and that, and be especially reverent to us, and be here on this day, but there on that day, and completely CLOG YOUR MIND WITH TRIVIAL NOTHINGS in order to maintain control over the individual.

The church, in doing the above, has demonstrated without question it has lost its way, and has nothing more to offer. Any and every church has, because it has never, ever, ever, EVER, ***EVER*** been about a church, but about the realization that we are already God, and we have nothing to do, nowhere to go, and no guilt to harbor and no fear to flee. What we are, and what we have is love. And that, that which nothing can possibly even approach to getting any better or lofty or inspiring and awe inspiring enspiriting optimism for ALL PEOPLE, is the Gospel.

And I can think of no better place for we Westerners to begin to grasp this utterly thrilling but astonishing doctrine than in Alan Watts books
1. Become What You Are
2. Out of Your Mind
3. The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

Along with others, though these are truly core to me personally, these texts pulled me out of the stale atheism which I could not help but have fallen into (again in the Perennial Philosophy there is absolutely no guilt whatever for whatever you are feeling, believing, or thinking, you already are God so absolutely everything going on is perfect, because it is God doing so) once I recognized I was simply lost. Now granted, I consider myself more as an Agnostic Seeker, but the emphasis is on the Seeker, not the not knowing...

Palerider wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:30 pm

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 am I understand your sentiment, but I think you are mistaken in some respect Pale Rider...

What is a church for actually? It is an organization which is supposed to help individuals gain access to God. It is, to use one of the most spectacular phrases I have ever read, supposed to help make us transparent to transcendence. But what does that mean? It means it is supposed to get individuals to God, to keep it on the lowdown mundane level, even though spiritually that is a magnificent order!
But, the Mormon church has nothing to do with the individual anymore, if it ever did at all. It is all about obedience to them. It is all about obedience to authority. It is all about worthiness and obedience in that worthiness to others who control your salvation. And, truth be told, that dog don't hunt. It can't. Here is why.

Salvation is entirely, utterly, and singularly ALWAYS based on an individual, not a group. And, salvation cannot have an in-between, no matter what or who that intermediary is, between the individual and God. The idea of a church is to expand, set up, work with, and help the individual gain salvation for himself or herself, not worry about tithes, offerings, building buildings, etc. And the great clue which Mormonism utterly ignores, almost totally entirely, is John 17. The Great intercessory prayer of Jesus.

In that prayer there is no talk of church, there is no talk of worshipping Jesus. There is no talk of worshipping God. There is no talk of tithes, missionary work, nothing which Mormonism stands for. Yet, it is the only and entire reason for our lives. To BECOME ***ONE*** with God as Jesus is. Now this is not fiddlesticks or playing Monopoly kind of silliness, this is the entire theme of the most antique religious view in existence, the Perennial Philosophy, whose best expositors have always been the Eastern gurus, until Jesus showed up...

He told the plain and singular blunt Zen-Like truth, THOU ART THAT. And that was his prayer and his entire reason for even showing up on earth. To get us to change our focus just enough to realize that we already are what we are supposed to become, we just don't know. And what is it that we are? The very Ground of Being of all existence, as is everyone else, and everything else. It is the non-dual ONE of which we many, all of us, and all things, ARE. The One and the Many is the most excited, yet exacerbating philosophical conundrum in our human thinking history. It's supposed to be. It's O.K. that we don't get it. But it's NOT O.K. to ignore it, and not try, or continue accepting when other groups and organizations tell you you are not that, but we'll let you in heaven if you do this and that, and think this and that, and be especially reverent to us, and be here on this day, but there on that day, and completely CLOG YOUR MIND WITH TRIVIAL NOTHINGS in order to maintain control over the individual.

The church, in doing the above, has demonstrated without question it has lost its way, and has nothing more to offer. Any and every church has, because it has never, ever, ever, EVER, ***EVER*** been about a church, but about the realization that we are already God, and we have nothing to do, nowhere to go, and no guilt to harbor and no fear to flee. What we are, and what we have is love. And that, that which nothing can possibly even approach to getting any better or lofty or inspiring and awe inspiring enspiriting optimism for ALL PEOPLE, is the Gospel.

And I can think of no better place for we Westerners to begin to grasp this utterly thrilling but astonishing doctrine than in Alan Watts books
1. Become What You Are
2. Out of Your Mind
3. The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

Along with others, though these are truly core to me personally, these texts pulled me out of the stale atheism which I could not help but have fallen into (again in the Perennial Philosophy there is absolutely no guilt whatever for whatever you are feeling, believing, or thinking, you already are God so absolutely everything going on is perfect, because it is God doing so) once I recognized I was simply lost. Now granted, I consider myself more as an Agnostic Seeker, but the emphasis is on the Seeker, not the not knowing...

Hmmmm.....

Lots to digest here. I am noting that I said the LDS church needs to off-load all of their false doctrine. That may mean more to me than it might have to you.

I've thought for some time that the reason the "church" (beginning anciently and progressing through the ages) has failed in some respects was because it was never intended to succeed in the form it took after Christ's ascencion. It did serve a purpose in proclaiming Christ as our Savior but failed by morphing into a vehicle through which salvation is acheived. (ETA: I'm talking about the Christian Church generally here, not of it being a precursor of the LDS faith.)

And this is where I discovered what to me or for me is an answer to the church dilemma in the big picture. So I think, perhaps without identifying it as such, you may be talking about the principle of Grace, which the LDS church has an extremely difficult time with. They just don't get it. I'm speaking of "Grace" as almost being the replacement for an organized religion.

I began to realize that through the principle of Grace I became accountable only to myself and God....and God in me. Under a "legalistic" form of church government I am accountable to leadership (men) who tell me my place and give me my assignments to "do good". They become the arbiters of my WORTHINESS. Whether that "good" benefits the organization or an individual is immaterial. The important question is, "Does doing that assigned "good" benefit ME, as in moving me toward salvation?"

And the answer must be a resounding "NO".

It's impossible for an "assigned" work to benefit me. Because all salvific works must be done out of the workings of God in my heart and of my own free will. And in order for that to occur, the individual must be a truly free agent. Not the phony "free" agent that is enslaved to the church through a false covenant. Therefore a church established on the false doctrines of Mormonism cannot possibly offer salvation.

To teach members that the power of Godliness is contained in the ordinances of the church/priesthood is a damnable heresy. As was demonstrated very well under the Law of Moses, Israel could go through the motions of the ordinances and still be in sin because their HEARTS were corrupt.

Corollary to the above is the false doctrine that "we only receive blessings by obeying the law upon which they are predicated". Another heresy geared to coerce obedience from the innocent.

Numerous times in the Old Testament God would essentially tell his people Israel, "Ok, you're in a bad spot here and you have done it to yourselves and now you want me to bail you out. Well, YOU DON'T DESERVE IT, but I'm going to do it FOR MY NAME'S SAKE."

That's Grace.

Mercy is, not getting the punishment we deserve. Grace is getting better than we deserve. God knows what we are. He knows the inner workings of our hearts and how difficult it is being human. He expects us to be made "whole" through his atonement. Not "perfect" as the Father is through our own practices.

So, getting back to living In a world without the church as a controlling entity. That means that I as an individual am free to set my own standards of excellence and behavior. I no longer have the excuse, as in the Mountain Meadows atrocity, that I was just obeying orders. I become completely responsible for my relationship with God and my own salvation. The "church" becomes an amorphous entity that is everywhere in the hearts of people throughout the world. It is guided by the Spirit of God on a personal level, not through any human intermediary. This is the true nature of the church already whether anyone recognizes it or not.

And for me that independence of "becoming" (sanctification) includes using the Biblical scriptures as a faithful guide to accomplish that. Say what you will about the infallibility of the Biblical scriptures but for me personally even with some possible discrepancies, the more I study them in an independent manner the more strength they gain.

So if someone wants to organize a "church".....fine. Many hands can make small work. But the church should only make members AWARE of the needs of the people. Then allow (not assign) members to help where they feel they best can. Let members choose their own acts of righteousness. Let members choose their own (I hesitate to use the word "leaders" here) wise men or "elders" in the nonecclesiastic sense of that word.

I have nothing against "organizing" to amplify efforts and to become more effective. Just don't forget who is really in charge.

So in a nut shell, the "true" church has gone incognito or underground since the death of the original Apostles. If one reads the parable of the wheat and the tares there is no "restoration" as a part of the big scenario. There are only individuals, growing together, who either live the Gospel as given by Christ, of their own free will to one degree or another or individuals who choose evil. And then both are harvested. When the angels ask if they can uproot the tares and restore the field to it's original perfection in doctrine, the Father says "No, let them grow together".
No new Apostles. No newly restored church. It is what it is.

ETA: For clarity

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 amBut, the Mormon church has nothing to do with the individual anymore, if it ever did at all. It is all about obedience to them. It is all about obedience to authority. It is all about worthiness and obedience in that worthiness to others who control your salvation.

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 amSalvation is entirely, utterly, and singularly ALWAYS based on an individual, not a group. And, salvation cannot have an in-between, no matter what or who that intermediary is, between the individual and God. The idea of a church is to expand, set up, work with, and help the individual gain salvation for himself or herself, not worry about tithes, offerings, building buildings, etc. And the great clue which Mormonism utterly ignores, almost totally entirely, is John 17. The Great intercessory prayer of Jesus.

In that prayer there is no talk of church, there is no talk of worshipping Jesus. There is no talk of worshipping God. There is no talk of tithes, missionary work, nothing which Mormonism stands for. Yet, it is the only and entire reason for our lives. To BECOME ***ONE*** with God as Jesus is. Now this is not fiddlesticks or playing Monopoly kind of silliness, this is the entire theme of the most antique religious view in existence, the Perennial Philosophy, whose best expositors have always been the Eastern gurus, until Jesus showed up...

He told the plain and singular blunt Zen-Like truth, THOU ART THAT. And that was his prayer and his entire reason for even showing up on earth. To get us to change our focus just enough to realize that we already are what we are supposed to become, we just don't know. And what is it that we are? The very Ground of Being of all existence, as is everyone else, and everything else. It is the non-dual ONE of which we many, all of us, and all things, ARE. The One and the Many is the most excited, yet exacerbating philosophical conundrum in our human thinking history. It's supposed to be. It's O.K. that we don't get it. But it's NOT O.K. to ignore it, and not try, or continue accepting when other groups and organizations tell you you are not that, but we'll let you in heaven if you do this and that, and think this and that, and be especially reverent to us, and be here on this day, but there on that day, and completely CLOG YOUR MIND WITH TRIVIAL NOTHINGS in order to maintain control over the individual.

Palerider wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:30 pmI began to realize that through the principle of Grace I became accountable only to myself and God....and God in me. Under a "legalistic" form of church government I am accountable to leadership (men) who tell me my place and give me my assignments to "do good". They become the arbiters of my WORTHINESS. Whether that "good" benefits the organization or an individual is immaterial. The important question is, "Does doing that assigned "good" benefit ME, as in moving me toward salvation?"

And the answer must be a resounding "NO".

It's impossible for an "assigned" work to benefit me. Because all salvific works must be done out of the workings of God in my heart and of my own free will. And in order for that to occur, the individual must be a truly free agent. Not the phony "free" agent that is enslaved to the church through a false covenant. Therefore a church established on the false doctrines of Mormonism cannot possibly offer salvation.

To teach members that the power of Godliness is contained in the ordinances of the church/priesthood is a damnable heresy. As was demonstrated very well under the Law of Moses, Israel could go through the motions of the ordinances and still be in sin because their HEARTS were corrupt.

Corollary to the above is the false doctrine that "we only receive blessings by obeying the law upon which they are predicated". Another heresy geared to coerce obedience from the innocent.

Numerous times in the Old Testament God would essentially tell his people Israel, "Ok, you're in a bad spot here and you have done it to yourselves and now you want me to bail you out. Well, YOU DON'T DESERVE IT, but I'm going to do it FOR MY NAME'S SAKE."

That's Grace.

Mercy is, not getting the punishment we deserve. Grace is getting better than we deserve. God knows what we are. He knows the inner workings of our hearts and how difficult it is being human. He expects us to be made "whole" through his atonement. Not "perfect" as the Father is through our own practices.

So, getting back to living In a world without the church as a controlling entity. That means that I as an individual am free to set my own standards of excellence and behavior.

. . .

So in a nut shell, the "true" church has gone incognito or underground since the death of the original Apostles. If one reads the parable of the wheat and the tares there is no "restoration" as a part of the big scenario. There are only individuals, growing together, who either live the Gospel as given by Christ, of their own free will to one degree or another or individuals who choose evil. And then both are harvested. When the angels ask if they can uproot the tares and restore the field to it's original perfection in doctrine, the Father says "No, let them grow together".
No new Apostles. No newly restored church. It is what it is.

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 am Salvation is entirely, utterly, and singularly ALWAYS based on an individual, not a group. And, salvation cannot have an in-between, no matter what or who that intermediary is, between the individual and God. The idea of a church is to expand, set up, work with, and help the individual gain salvation for himself or herself, not worry about tithes, offerings, building buildings, etc. And the great clue which Mormonism utterly ignores, almost totally entirely, is John 17. The Great intercessory prayer of Jesus.

In that prayer there is no talk of church, there is no talk of worshipping Jesus. There is no talk of worshipping God. There is no talk of tithes, missionary work, nothing which Mormonism stands for. Yet, it is the only and entire reason for our lives. To BECOME ***ONE*** with God as Jesus is. Now this is not fiddlesticks or playing Monopoly kind of silliness, this is the entire theme of the most antique religious view in existence, the Perennial Philosophy, whose best expositors have always been the Eastern gurus, until Jesus showed up...

Palerider wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 12:30 pm Numerous times in the Old Testament God would essentially tell his people Israel, "Ok, you're in a bad spot here and you have done it to yourselves and now you want me to bail you out. Well, YOU DON'T DESERVE IT, but I'm going to do it FOR MY NAME'S SAKE."

That's Grace.

Mercy is, not getting the punishment we deserve. Grace is getting better than we deserve. God knows what we are. He knows the inner workings of our hearts and how difficult it is being human. He expects us to be made "whole" through his atonement. Not "perfect" as the Father is through our own practices.

Random wrote: ↑Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:42 pm

Apologeticsislying wrote: ↑Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:22 amBut, the Mormon church has nothing to do with the individual anymore, if it ever did at all. It is all about obedience to them. It is all about obedience to authority. It is all about worthiness and obedience in that worthiness to others who control your salvation.

This is so true. The only commandment that matters anymore is obedience to your leaders, and the higher up they are, the more your membership is in jeopardy if you question anything they say. "Oathlike allegiance" is how I think Oaks put it.