How do we know the Church has repented?

[deacon blues]

One point that John Dehlin makes in a recent podcast concerns the Church's moral and legal hypocrisy. The Church may vaguely admit to making mistakes (Pres. Uchtdorff, Oct 2013), but they won't confess specifically to what those mistakes were (there are exceptions, when they were under duress), and they WON"T APOLOGIZE. (Pres. Oaks)
By contrast, to assure that members properly repent in priesthood interviews, they insist members confess specific mistakes, often in detail, and apologize for them.
I should have been able to say in bishop's interviews: "I made mistakes and I'm sorry, now let's move on.
I think 'hypocrites. is an appropriate term for those who do this.

[Palerider]

Just as the "church" leadership at the time of Christ had a huge blindspot regarding their own sinfulness, current leadership (pharisees) would rather excommunicate (crucify) members who call out their failings than admit any wrongdoings. They don't like people who mess with their "good thing" they've got going.
But I think their fun time is drawing to a close. The awakening of members is edging towards critical mass. I think it could happen sooner than we think.

[Hagoth]

You will know the church has repented when you get a large check in the mail. Either a full tithing refund or your share of the Ensign Peak earnings.

[deacon blues]

Palerider and Hagoth make great points.
The Church I grew up in liked a literal interpretation of Numbers 23:19: "“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent."
But then came the challenge of dealing with the "New Church History." How can the Church address its own mistakes, let alone others.
I think people like Dallin Oaks feel in their hearts, and they act like the church IS god. The LDS Church is their IDOL.
Their Church/God is not a man that he should lie (except lying for the Lord/Church, you know- carefully worded denials) or repent. (do temporary commandments count?)
See: "wheat and tares." Oct.13, 2024.Here is a quote.
"Last week during Pres Oaks’ talk in General Conference he invented a new category of commandments that has never been heard of before. It is called “temporary commandments”.
Hypocrisy can be blinded by its own certainty.
And yes, I might be wrong. That is to say I'm not certain.

[dogbite]

I don't expect church to repent. That is to expect a particular consistent framework that has never been in evidence.

Rather it relies on divine command theory. It's never wrong in the moment. It can look to be in the wrong but that is from human perspective only.

And DCT is not a path I desire to participate in.

[Hagoth]

Correct answer: when Outer Darkness freezes over.

[Just This Guy]

And DCT is not a path I desire to participate in.

What do you mean by "DCT"?

[Linked]

And DCT is not a path I desire to participate in.

What do you mean by "DCT"?

Probably Divine Command Theory? Where anything God says is right, regardless of other moral frameworks. I.e. Nephi killing Laban to steal his stuff is good because Got told him to, even though murder and theft are typically frowned upon.

[2bizE]

We will know when Oaks says the church apologizes for all its terrible deeds.

[moksha]

We will know when Oaks says the church apologizes for all its terrible deeds.

So isn't that the same as Hagoth's answer of "when Outer Darkness freezes over"?

[2bizE]

We will know when Oaks says the church apologizes for all its terrible deeds.

So isn't that the same as Hagoth's answer of "when Outer Darkness freezes over"?

Yes it is. Except, hell has a better chance of freezing

[Palerider]

I'm binge-watching "Suits" on Netflix. I never saw it when it first came out.

The funny thing is that an episode the other night included the legal principle that if a corporation or individual "apologizes" for wrong-doing, they immediately become liable for damages. So it isn't that the church doesn't feel that it's in the wrong on its big screw-ups. It knows it is. It's just trying to safeguard that huge and obscene nest egg that it secretly accumulated off the backs of the poor. The church is worse than the Mafia when it comes to money. That should tell you everything you need to know about its veracity.

[deacon blues]

TBM's and GA's would consider protecting their financial interests a legitimate reason to not apologize or repent. It's a great example of "lying for the Lord." Using that excuse lets the Church ease into a 'we're only human' stance. But when they want to play God, when they judge society, or blame their own members for things, or protect their financial interests, they are describing and defining themselves as Scribes and Pharisees.