Belief in a Deity Vs. Belief in a Church

[Evil Monkey]

This thread was inspired by comments in the Convictions thread. To clarify my topic name when I say Vs. I am curious about which of these two broad beliefs is trending upward and which is trending downward. I would love to assume that a strong Belief in a Deity with no true belief in an actual church is trending upward but that may just be me being hopeful. I am curious about what the NOM community has noticed in regards to this. Online there are many Social media articles suggesting that the current generation is the least church going in History. Is this true? Not sure if there is actual facts to back that up. But if there is please share. I find this topic to be fascinating. Personally I believe strongly in a Deity. I believe that Deity to be extremely personal. This in itself prohibits me from proselyting my beliefs because everyone should do you. No one should tell you what you should or should not believe ever. So when I read that church attendance is down but belief in a Deity is holding steady I tend to wonder where the world will be in another generation or two. Please share your thoughts on this...this topic has been resonating in my head for a couple of years now. I am just now motivated to discuss it. So please do.

[deacon blues]

You give an interesting twist to a question I've pondered for a long time. My experience is that most young people today are taught to believe in a Church and/or a scripture, rather than develop their own concept of God. But some young people, fewer than half it seems, seek to explore God on their own terms as they grow older.
Eventually it seems to work out to 33% strive to justify and perpetuate what they are taught.
33% just go with the flow.
33% are seekers, willing to follow where their path leads them. All who wander are not lost.

[Evil Monkey]

You give an interesting twist to a question I've pondered for a long time. My experience is that most young people today are taught to believe in a Church and/or a scripture, rather than develop their own concept of God. But some young people, fewer than half it seems, seek to explore God on their own terms as they grow older.
Eventually it seems to work out to 33% strive to justify and perpetuate what they are taught.
33% just go with the flow.
33% are seekers, willing to follow where their path leads them. All who wander are not lost.

Indeed. "All who wander are not lost." That should be the NOM official mantra. I can't speak to others experiences but with my own life it was the failure to realize the Mormon dream life after doing everything right as commanded by the Church that led me outside of the Church. Its 23 years ago now but when my Wife and I were expecting our first child we did everything by the book. Temple going, tithing paying the whole nine yards. But none of that can change fate. We lost our first born to an extremely rare birth defect known as anencephaly. Basically our baby when forming as a fetus never full formed his skull as a result of this defect... causing his brain to suffer life ending infection shortly after birth. We were given the choice at the time of ultrasound detection (which happened the same day we found out we were having a Boy a couple days before Christmas) to abort. We chose to keep him to term cause that was the only time we were going to get with him period. The church provided the opposite of true help during this crisis. They provided us with false hope that God could perform a miracle or that the Doctors were wrong. There was no miracle. The Doctors were not wrong. The ultrasound was spot on. There was absolutely nothing we could do. And our first born son was born and gone in under 30 minutes. Enough time to give him his name in an emergency blessing with a former Bishop and also close family friend to help. Even at the end we still did it all as the Church directed. It changed nothing. Contrast that to my Wifes sister that just 8 years later gave birth to a completely healthy baby girl out of wedlock whose piece of dirt Father was in Jail for beating her Mother up just days before giving birth. I can't make this stuff up. There is no magic formula to this life that shields you from the horrors that could occur. I learned that the hard way as you can tell. "Come what may" to quote Shakespeare. Whatever happens happens. What matters most is that we keep moving forward. Life is what we make of it. No matter the cards we are dealt. I myself have had a nowhere near perfect life. Its a struggle. But its one of eye opening clarity. I will always believe in God. That personal relationship with God is what has gotten me through this messed up world and it will be the main thing that keeps me going till I draw my last breath. I realize that is not the path or way for every NOM and I respect that. Everyone has there own path. In my opinion the world should have 8 billion or so, given the current World Population, different religions. Every single man woman and child on the face of Earth needs there own personal religion of one. Plain and simple.

[MoPag]

Evil Monkey, I'm so sorry for your loss. That is truly heartbreaking.

According to this article https://news.gallup.com/poll/642548/chu ... roups.aspx 2 decades ago 42% of American adults regularly attended church each Sunday. Now that number is only 21%.

In my opinion the world should have 8 billion or so, given the current World Population, different religions. Every single man woman and child on the face of Earth needs there own personal religion of one. Plain and simple.

I like this idea. Everyone is so different. We should celebrate our differences instated of letting them trigger our insecurities. If churches could be more supportive of differences, maybe they wouldn't be declining.

[Evil Monkey]

According to this article https://news.gallup.com/poll/642548/chu ... roups.aspx 2 decades ago 42% of American adults regularly attended church each Sunday. Now that number is only 21%.

I like this idea. Everyone is so different. We should celebrate our differences instated of letting them trigger our insecurities. If churches could be more supportive of differences, maybe they wouldn't be declining.

I agree that all churches need to be more inclusive. I attended a full block of Church at my Covid reorganized ward for the first time with my wife in January. It was on par with every experience of the church prior to that if not a little worse. Of course the Elders quorum topic was tithing. About 9 or 10 Elders sitting in a circle and it took me about almost till the end of our time to realize one of the gentlemen was not a member. Come to find most of the Elders including the President knew the non members situation however they still didn't pull any punches and when they went around the room to briefly summarize Tithing in a few words several "Fire Insurance" or similar comments were made. Tithing= "Fire Insurance" has to be the biggest non inclusive deep doctrine fable in the church. I can't believe members of the church still spread that. One it promotes fear among the faithful and two to a non member it makes them feel as though the church believes all Non members will be burned at the Second Coming. If I'm not mistaken that's exactly what this fable insinuates. But I call it a fable cause has any Prophet or Apostle repeated that in the past couple of decades? I would think not. The fact that they would declare it in front of a non member indicated to me that the Mormon church culture has not changed. Not really sure if it ever will.

But to your original point...I wish the Mormon church was more inclusive and less dogmatic. But recent events including the Garment crackdown just makes it clear that we are a long way off from an inclusive church. Perhaps when that stat gets cut in half once more down to 10% of all American Adults attending church regular all churches including our church will wake up. I think that is coming. Among all of my daughters friends in highschool only one out of like 10 ever attended Church regular. I think that decline will continue. Question is how long will the First Presidency keep there head in the sand before they make real lasting changes to the Churches Dogma that make the Church more inviting. I have no idea. I have given up waiting for that. The church is an after thought at this point to me but I do care for my individual family members still in the Church. And yearn for the Church to be better for there sakes.

[deacon blues]

sorry about the loss of your first child. The Church does build up false hope when they promote "miraculous" events which are usually rare exceptions to medical issues.
I don't claim to know as much as Church Leaders, but I do hope I don't preach as much BS as they do. And I don't use oaths to command respect. Evil-speaking of Deacon Blues is relatively risk free.

[Evil Monkey]

sorry about the loss of your first child. The Church does build up false hope when they promote "miraculous" events which are usually rare exceptions to medical issues.
I don't claim to know as much as Church Leaders, but I do hope I don't preach as much BS as they do. And I don't use oaths to command respect. Evil-speaking of Deacon Blues is relatively risk free.

I appreciate your words deacon blues. It was a long time ago. But it was everlasting trauma to say the least. No amount of therapy will ever completely remove the pain felt from burying your child no less your first born. King Theoden says it best.
Théoden: “No parent should have to bury their child.”
The Funeral of Théodred - Middle Earth Diaries
middle-earth-diaries.com/the-funeral-of-theodred/

Two Towers came out about a year after we were going through this pain... so it rang true to me like a bolt of lightning when I saw Two Towers giving me a strong sort of kinship to Theoden even though he is a Fictional Character. The Church offers no real answers to real suffering. When I was going through it they had no idea what to say. Even years later when I would bring up the emotional weight that this has had on us over the years to Stake Presidency and Bishopric members, they would quickly try to change the subject knowing they had no real advice for me. And that's the kicker. They are supposed to be stewards appointed by God. How can they offer no true wisdom regarding death. I am sure there are Stake Presidents and Bishops that can but the ones I dealt with were definitely bad examples of conversations they should be prepared to have. Losing a child is a real reality in a religion that strongly urges its congregation to marry young and not delay having kids. So that said all of the Stake Presidencies and Bishoprics should be prepared for this topic but in my experience, they had no clue how to comfort us.