Deseret news: Seer stone

[oliblish]

Nonetheless, published accounts did shed some light on the process, and it also is included in “Joseph Smith’s Seer Stones.” These accounts suggest Joseph would look into the seer stone and see sentences formed. He would read the sentences a word at a time and spell proper names one letter at a time. When the scribe had properly written down the characters, the next word or sentence would appear. Joseph would often place the stone in a hat to block out light and more clearly see what was written.

Still no mention of putting his face in the hat. They only say that he put the stone in the hat - much less weird that way.

[LaMachina]

How many of you heard of the Urim and Thummim and knew about the spectacles and breastplate story growing up or in young adulthood?


Is this:


really THAT much weirder than this?:


There is definitely gaslighting going on but why is some weirdness so hard to swallow? For anybody who knew of the spectacles but are really pissed about this, how come? When I found out about the rock I was surprised and a little taken aback (it certainly doesn't seem "dignified") but I eventually accepted it because those friggin glasses are also really weird too. And Jesus spitting into dirt to cure blindness was weird, and him being a necromancer was weird, and Moses and snake staffs were weird. It wasn't til my worldview changed that I rejected those things.

I certainly didn't consider myself gullible or weak-minded. I thought about this stuff A LOT and knew a fair number of brilliant people who also thought about it alot. Looking back I could say my thinking was definitely a little distorted but I still get accused of being gullible and weak-minded today when rejecting lizard people in discussions with my bro-in-law or defending the moon landing to my sis-in-law...whatever is going on with people believing weird things, being gullible and weak-minded seems to have nothing to do with it.

[alas]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tones.html

Wait, are they talking about the church, or Harry Potter?

It will be the first book of a new series by "Tennis Shoes among the Nephites" author, Chris Heimerdinger. The title, appropriately, is "Joseph Smith and the Seer Stone" detailing how this young boy dug a hole and found a rock. No, wait, "the young prophet discovered an artifact that would lead to the restoration of God's true church". The sequels will be "Joseph Smith and the Plates of Gold", "Joseph Smith and the Prophet's Top Hat", and eventually "Joseph Smith and the Twice-Married Wife".

Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?

Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular.

This is baloney. The seer stone is more like a gypsy with a crystal ball, not like the Urim and Thummim stories of biblical legend.

Would you be happier with Urim and Thummin being described as taro cards rather than a seer stone? I have read Bible experts describing the Urim and Thummin as a way of casting lots, or as something similar to taro cards. One description said they were black and white rocks (black being one of U or T, with white the other) and they had markings like letters inscribed on them, and they were cast like dice and then read. Read like taro cards. One Bible e pert even said they were an early version of taro cards. Not too far off from a crystal ball when you consider them as being like taro cards. The big difference being that the crystal ball leaves the prophecy up to the imagination of the gypsy, while the taro cards give her hints which she then interprets.

Joseph practiced the same kind of magic as the pagans or early Hebrew who were essentially pagans. They believed that God controlled the way that their dice things shook out. Thus since God was controlling it, it was prophetic.

There are several Bible stories where they describe getting revelation from God by casting lots. Someone didn't bring all the plunder of war to the Kings coffers, so they draw straws and the short straw indicates the guilty party who then either lies about being innocent before they kill him or confesses before they kill him.

[wtfluff]

There is definitely gaslighting going on but why is some weirdness so hard to swallow? For anybody who knew of the spectacles but are really pissed about this, how come?

• 1. The Urim and Thummim is at least biblical. Being "something" that was used elsewhere in "scripture" lends the Urim and Thummim a teeny-tiny bit of credence. Seer Stones are 19th century folk magic. There's a reason the church referred to all of the magic translating instruments as the Urim and Thummim, because they knew that people would be upset at Joseph using folk magic to produce the Book of Mormon (and much of the D&C.) Yes either "translation" method is crazy (much like Alas mentions,) but people are going to look down on folk magic much more than biblical magic.
• 2. The church has lied about the "translation" method from the very beginning. And the reality is, they continue to obfuscate the details as much as possible, like this article proves.

I'm personally much more pissed about #2. If they are "the only true and living church on the face of the earth", and the board of directors talks to Jesus "all the time", why have they lied for ~180 years?

[LaMachina]

Anger at the lying is completely justified IMHO.

As to the weirdness it is fascinating what we can give even some credibility or what we find is more dignified vs what we find ridiculous. As you say, people give "biblical" weirdness the benefit of the doubt for no other reason than maybe it's been around for a while? It's more present in the collective consciousness? I don't know. It's just strange we might guffaw at E-meters while accepting laying on of hands as I once did.

And whenever I'm tempted to think people who believe weird things are morons I'm reminded that Isaac Newton was one of the most brilliant people to have ever lived and he was a bit of a nutter.

[moksha]

Is Aragorn ready to have a vision, translate a plate, or bowl a strike?

[Corsair]

Is Aragorn ready to have a vision, translate a plate, or bowl a strike?

To be fair, Aragorn is a lot more credible to me than Joseph Smith. Despite being fictional, I still would trust the Ranger of the North more than the Prophet of the Restoration. If he said he was trying to bowl a strike, I would start looking for ten pins down the lane.

[Ghost]

Seer stones were associated with prophetic work in the days of Joseph . . . .

This is something I don't think I've heard before. Are there other cases of such stones being used with in Christian movements of that era? Or are they simply referring to treasure seekers and other non-religious uses and calling that "prophetic?" A quick search comes up with only references to LDS history.

The argument I have heard in the past is that people took stock in other tools such as divining rods and didn't see those as incompatible with Christian beliefs, so a seer stone was not such a stretch. Not that seer stones were widely accepted.

Nonetheless, seer stones are currently undergoing something of a renaissance.

I have to assume that they mean that we are talking about them more now because the LDS church has acknowledged them more directly, rather than that they are in use again. Though the latter would be a more interesting claim for sure.

As to the weirdness it is fascinating what we can give even some credibility or what we find is more dignified vs what we find ridiculous. As you say, people give "biblical" weirdness the benefit of the doubt for no other reason than maybe it's been around for a while? It's more present in the collective consciousness? I don't know. It's just strange we might guffaw at E-meters while accepting laying on of hands as I once did.

Yes, as much as people justify Mormon beliefs and practices by giving them context in Bible stories, I don't think anything in Mormonism can top the bizarre and repulsive things you find in books of the Bible.

But when I think of how much more boring LDS and Judeo-Christian history would be without the "weird" parts, I guess I'm glad they are there.