Deseret news: Seer stone

[20/20hind]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tones.html

Wait, are they talking about the church, or Harry Potter?

I wonder if the first presidencys vault is numbered 713?

[wtfluff]

Wait, are they talking about the church, or Harry Potter?

I wonder if the first presidencys vault is numbered 713?

Likely behind Platform Six and Two-Thirds (6.66)


Edit: FYI, the part of the Granite Mountain Vault that "belongs" to the first presidency is the "F-Vault". That's where Moroni (or was it Nephi?) hid the Umma and Thurmin, the "Sword" of Laban, and the fake Golden Plates.

[Not Buying It]

Seer stones seem strange, are they?

Seer stones were associated with prophetic work in the days of Joseph, but seem quite peculiar to many today.

“They are very strange," Frederick said. "But that’s because in 2016 as a society we’ve erected a pretty firm barrier between the natural world and the supernatural world, between the scientific world and the religious world.”

These barriers did not exist in the 1800s and a prophet of Joseph’s time, Frederick continued, would actually “be expected to have a connection with the divine world, such as a seer stone. It gave Joseph prophetic credibility in the minds of his listeners.”

Frederick concluded that “it’s strange to think that many of the events surrounding the coming forth of the Book of Mormon that cause faith crises for some Latter-day Saints today, such as angelic visitations, scripture written on plates of gold or English words appearing on stones, had largely the opposite effect for 19th-century converts.”

Wrong. Joseph and his loony family were considered bat crap crazy by most of their neighbors even back in the days when there wasn't "a pretty firm barrier between the natural world and the supernatural world". That's just BS. Early Mormons were mostly superstitious and gullible people who bought into nonsense like seer stones, then as now people with common sense didn't go in for that kind of idiocy. Look at Emma's dad - they had to elope because he saw Joseph for the charlatan that he was. In our day and age people still join Scientology - but it isn't like most of society would. Same thing in the time of Joseph Smith - the gullible and weak minded fell for that kind of junk, people with any common sense didn't.

[document]

I, too, grow tired of the explanation that Joseph Smith wasn't different from everyone else.

One of my favorite moments as a Mormon was when Larry King asked Gordon Hinckley why the church is run by old men. Gordon Hinckley didn't deflect the question or give some evasive answer but said (I don't remember the exact quote), "Isn't it wonderful?" and then spoke of the wisdom of conservative thinking. While I disagree with his assessment, he owned it. He didn't try to say "we're young at heart" or some other crap statement.

Joseph Smith was different from his neighbors. His neighbors thought he was weird. By his own stories he was persecuted because he was different. He was hauled before a court as a charlatan for his use of magical objects for treasure seeking.

Own it, LDS church. When someone asks if Joseph Smith had a seer stone, just say, "Isn't it wonderful?" instead of deflecting it as being a perfectly normal thing. It isn't normal, and that was something I found charming about Mormonism when I was in it!

[deacon blues]

Joseph knew he had to be cautious with talking about seer stones, just as he had to be cautious about polygamy. The LDS church had secrets and cover ups from the very beginning.

[AllieOop]

Joseph knew he had to be cautious with talking about seer stones, just as he had to be cautious about polygamy. The LDS church had secrets and cover ups from the very beginning.

Yes. There's a reason Joseph latched onto the speculation by W.W. Phelps about the term Urim & Thummim and immediately started referring to the seer stones as such from then on. Even Joseph knew there were problems with how he'd used the stones to translate the BofM as well as using these same stones previously for treasure seeking. It absolutely was not accepted or common and this article infers, "well everyone was doing it back then". All one needs to do is read the testimonies of the Smith family's neighbors or how Joseph was hauled into court for doing what he was doing to know that simply is not true.

Also, there is not one mention of how he used these stone by putting them in his hat. That is the ONLY way he used them (for translating and for treasure seeking).

[Red Ryder]

Bill Reel points out the duplicity here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _prior_to/

From the article: ""Such an explanation (the use of a treasure digging seer stone in a hat) is, in our judgment, simply fiction created for the purpose of demeaning Joseph Smith and to undermine the validity of the revelations he received after translating the Book of Mormon."" - two BYU Professors (Joseph Fielding McConkie & Craig Ostler)

Now how can we make the argument that the seer stone info was both available and accepted as legitimate when two BYU professors including the son of a General Authority didn't buy into it? So I am to believe the lay member should of known while also accepting that these two informed and educated deep thinking BYU professors did not accept the stone in the hat as legitimate? that's weird.

http://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/Rel121 ... 20BofM.pdf

[2bizE]

Seems kinda hard to make something so f@$$ing bizarre and supernatural to have any semblance of normal. So the FP may have the white stone in their collection? Wonder what else they have.

[fh451]

Look at Emma's dad - they had to elope because he saw Joseph for the charlatan that he was. In our day and age people still join Scientology - but it isn't like most of society would. Same thing in the time of Joseph Smith - the gullible and weak minded fell for that kind of junk, people with any common sense didn't.

Which makes me feel real good about my genetic heritage!

fh451

[moksha]

Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?

Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular. For example, Joseph first used the term to refer to the Nephite stones but later used the term to describe any seer stone. Thus, MacKay and Frederick show in their book, the Urim and Thummim and term seer stone are used interchangeably to indicate seer stones as a revelatory tool.

Well, this is certainly a big shift in Mormon understanding. Throw out those descriptions of goggles or even the Old Testament description of the breastplate. They are now seer stones. Claiming that seer stones were a normal part of religious history is also a shift toward normalizing the seer stones. All that is left is a heroic portrait of Joseph peering into his hat to appear on the cover of the Ensign magazine (a Seer Stone Monument in Liberty Park would be nice, but optional).

Of course, a Church-wide Fireside showing "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" would be another help toward normalizing translation process.

[wtfluff]

All that is left is a heroic portrait of Joseph peering into his hat to appear on the cover of the Ensign magazine

I skimmed through the article quickly, and didn't see any mention of the "face in the hat" method of getting seer-stoned.

Did I miss it, or did they conveniently skip over the hat?

[20/20hind]

All that is left is a heroic portrait of Joseph peering into his hat to appear on the cover of the Ensign magazine

I skimmed through the article quickly, and didn't see any mention of the "face in the hat" method of getting seer-stoned.

Did I miss it, or did they conveniently skip over the hat?

Yes, they did mention it. I would ask if any prophet after Joseph used any seer stone and if any modern one has given it a go?

I can just see monson sneaking it out after everyone has gone home for the day and giving it a test drive.

[Not Buying It]

Look at Emma's dad - they had to elope because he saw Joseph for the charlatan that he was. In our day and age people still join Scientology - but it isn't like most of society would. Same thing in the time of Joseph Smith - the gullible and weak minded fell for that kind of junk, people with any common sense didn't.

Which makes me feel real good about my genetic heritage!

fh451

Clearly you aren't as gullible as your forefathers or you wouldn't be on this forum!

[AllieOop]

I skimmed through the article quickly, and didn't see any mention of the "face in the hat" method of getting seer-stoned.

Did I miss it, or did they conveniently skip over the hat?

Yes, they did mention it.

I didn't see where they stated that Joseph used the seer stone by placing it in his hat. Can you quote it?

(I'll take another look too!)



************************

[Vlad the Emailer]

Which makes me feel real good about my genetic heritage!

fh451

Clearly you aren't as gullible as your forefathers or you wouldn't be on this forum!

Gullible yes, but our advantage is what we're using right now - the internet. Just thirty years ago on my mission I was avoiding (and judging and despising) those "minions of Satan" that were trying to expose me to the exact issues I would later find were genuine. Anti-Mormon? Certainly. Lies? Unfortunately not!!!!!

[Corsair]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tones.html

Wait, are they talking about the church, or Harry Potter?

It will be the first book of a new series by "Tennis Shoes among the Nephites" author, Chris Heimerdinger. The title, appropriately, is "Joseph Smith and the Seer Stone" detailing how this young boy dug a hole and found a rock. No, wait, "the young prophet discovered an artifact that would lead to the restoration of God's true church". The sequels will be "Joseph Smith and the Plates of Gold", "Joseph Smith and the Prophet's Top Hat", and eventually "Joseph Smith and the Twice-Married Wife".

Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?

Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular.

This is baloney. The seer stone is more like a gypsy with a crystal ball, not like the Urim and Thummim stories of biblical legend.

[wtfluff]

I didn't see where they stated that Joseph used the seer stone by placing it in his hat. Can you quote it?

(I'll take another look too!)

Found it:

Nonetheless, published accounts did shed some light on the process, and it also is included in “Joseph Smith’s Seer Stones.” These accounts suggest Joseph would look into the seer stone and see sentences formed. He would read the sentences a word at a time and spell proper names one letter at a time. When the scribe had properly written down the characters, the next word or sentence would appear. Joseph would often place the stone in a hat to block out light and more clearly see what was written.

One tiny mention, buried in how many pages of mormon-splaining?

Sorry, but saying he did it "often" doesn't explain the fact that the ENTIRE BOOK OF MORMON came from Joseph stuffing his face in the hat.

Misdirection, obfuscation, Carefully Worded Denials™, whatever you want to call it, that's a prime example of The Corporation's dishonesty.

Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?

Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular.

This is baloney. The seer stone is more like a gypsy with a crystal ball, not like the Urim and Thummim stories of biblical legend.

What they're pulling here is their basic bait-and-switch / gaslighting routine. Though they ONLY EVER taught anything in correlated manuals (before ~2013) that said the Umma and Thurman = the magic prehistoric nephite spectacles, THEY HAVE BEEN referring to Joseph's Magic Rock as the Umma and Thurman THE WHOLE TIME. Oh, and, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS, because they've "always known it" (Or they're lying and saying that they've always known this.)

Either way, it's a complete crock of you-know-what...

[Corsair]

What they're pulling here is their basic bait-and-switch / gaslighting routine. Though they ONLY EVER taught anything in correlated manuals (before ~2013) that said the Umma and Thurman = the magic prehistoric nephite spectacles, THEY HAVE BEEN referring to Joseph's Magic Rock as the Umma and Thurman THE WHOLE TIME. Oh, and, YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS, because they've "always known it" (Or they're lying and saying that they've always known this.)

"Umma and Thurman?" You've made me question the whole basis for Quentin Tarantino movies!

[wtfluff]

The Umma and Thurman has ALWAYS been cooler than the Urim and Thummim.

WE'VE ALWAYS KNOWN THIS. (Get with the program!)

I should probably start calling Joseph's Magic Rock™ something more sarcastic. Joseph's Sorcerer's Stone™ maybe?

[Vlad the Emailer]

Is there a difference between a seer stone and the Urim and Thummim?

Urim and Thummim is largely a synonym for seer stones, though at times the Hebrew term meaning “lights and perfections” or “revelation and truth,” depending on the translation, have been used to describe certain stones in particular.

This is baloney. The seer stone is more like a gypsy with a crystal ball, not like the Urim and Thummim stories of biblical legend.

You know it and they know it, yet off to spin they go! Where they'll stop, nobody knows!