Sorry church, I'm getting a vasectomy without your ok

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

From the current handbook 2:

21.4.15
Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)

The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

Sorry church, But I'm sure the bishop doesn't really want to hear about my decision to get sterilized, nor do I care to be lectured by another man who is my peer on whether he thinks it's a good idea or not. Besides, I already paid the deposit, it's happening without your sanction. No more kids for you to indoctrinate.

[Corsair]

Has anyone known of any faithful man who actually did go to his bishop asking for permission for getting a vasectomy? While this is a distinctly personal question, it can't be any worse than questions about the operation of "little factories" regularly aimed at both youth and adults. My stake added in a new question to the temple rec interview, "Do you have a problem with porn?" I can only imagine the awkward conversations that might follow in the minds of the guilty.

The vasectomy question has surely arisen many times across the modern church.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Has anyone known of any faithful man who actually did go to his bishop asking for permission for getting a vasectomy? While this is a distinctly personal question, it can't be any worse than questions about the operation of "little factories" regularly aimed at both youth and adults. My stake added in a new question to the temple rec interview, "Do you have a problem with porn?" I can only imagine the awkward conversations that might follow in the minds of the guilty.

The vasectomy question has surely arisen many times across the modern church.

It's a pretty obscure subject in the handbook. I imagine that few bishops even know it's there and of all the men I know of that have had this procedure, none of them consulted with the bishop first because how would they know it's even a thing? I think it's about the doctrine of not denying spirit children bodies and keeping future church growth and tithing revenues secure. It also provides incentive away from adultery because without permanent sterilization, the risks involved in committing sexual sin are higher. Maybe I should go ask my bishop this Sunday if he wants to talk about it so I can make him aware of it and have a fun awkward conversation!

[document]

Has anyone known of any faithful man who actually did go to his bishop asking for permission for getting a vasectomy?

Yes, a friend of mine shared this anecdote over lunch a few years ago. He was recently called to a bishop and a middle aged man came into him and consulted over vasectomy. My friend was confused as to why this person would even talk to him about it. His friend mentioned something about church policy which sent him (the bishop) to look it up and found out. To put it in his words, "Huh, I had a vasectomy and never even thought of asking my bishop".

So, yes, in his case someone did actually ask permission. Although, he did not ask permission himself.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Has anyone known of any faithful man who actually did go to his bishop asking for permission for getting a vasectomy?

Yes, a friend of mine shared this anecdote over lunch a few years ago. He was recently called to a bishop and a middle aged man came into him and consulted over vasectomy. My friend was confused as to why this person would even talk to him about it. His friend mentioned something about church policy which sent him (the bishop) to look it up and found out. To put it in his words, "Huh, I had a vasectomy and never even thought of asking my bishop".

So, yes, in his case someone did actually ask permission. Although, he did not ask permission himself.

That's hilarious and exactly what I imagine the conversation would be like with my Bishop.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I also find it interesting that female tube tying isn't mentioned by name, but male vasectomy is. Just in case polygamy comes back, we have to keep you men fertile! Females, we can always find more of you who are fertile to marry and procreate with apparently.

[Snowdrop]

This sounds a lot like George Q. Cannon's defense of eugenics and polygamy... not a fan.

[Give It Time]

FiveFingerMnemonic, it's none of my business and I'm proud of you.

The reason I wax proudful is abortion, as we all know, has been in the news lately. Here are my views on abortion: I pretty much agree with the church, EXCEPT in this way. It occurred to me that I've been listening to this debate for about thirty years and it is almost, word for word, exactly the same debate I heard thirty years ago. We have made zero progress in this discussion. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I looked at the question in a new way. Now, I have learned we shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies. The last time I checked into these matters, it took both a male and a female to fertilize an egg. For as long as abortions have been done in closeted situations with coathangers, we've only been addressing the female aspect of this problem.

It's time to look at the man's contribution. The way I look at it, each individual who is against abortion should say, "I am against abortion and this is how I am controlling my reproductive system and my behavior". Each man says that for himself. Each woman says that for herself. Each couple determines the right decisions for themselves and it's no one else's business.

Now, I knew about that policy, so I'm careful how I phrase my views on this when I'm speaking to members. For some reason women still cry when I say this and men hand me press releases of the church's view (because I haven't said the "v" word). Go figure, but apparently if you say you aren't in favor of controlling a woman's body and shaming her for her choices, that's just enough of an indicator of independent thought to raise a red flag.

In reference to women getting hysterectomies and men not getting vasectomies, it sends the message women are less important to the church in so many ways:

It's not as important she bear children, so much that he produces them.
Hysterectomies are much harder on women than they are on men. It's major surgery-vs-outpatient
It's my understanding a hysterectomy throws the woman's body into early menopause.

Even if only the first two are true, that sends a very clear message the church just isn't too concerned about women.

The church shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies; it shouldn't be telling men what to do with their bodies., If you determine that getting a vasectomy is the best way to go then I'm proud of you for taking responsibility in this way and it's none of my business!

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

FiveFingerMnemonic, it's none of my business and I'm proud of you.

The reason I wax proudful is abortion, as we all know, has been in the news lately. Here are my views on abortion: I pretty much agree with the church, EXCEPT in this way. It occurred to me that I've been listening to this debate for about thirty years and it is almost, word for word, exactly the same debate I heard thirty years ago. We have made zero progress in this discussion. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I looked at the question in a new way. Now, I have learned we shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies. The last time I checked into these matters, it took both a male and a female to fertilize an egg. For as long as abortions have been done in closeted situations with coathangers, we've only been addressing the female aspect of this problem.

It's time to look at the man's contribution. The way I look at it, each individual who is against abortion should say, "I am against abortion and this is how I am controlling my reproductive system and my behavior". Each man says that for himself. Each woman says that for herself. Each couple determines the right decisions for themselves and it's no one else's business.

Now, I knew about that policy, so I'm careful how I phrase my views on this when I'm speaking to members. For some reason women still cry when I say this and men hand me press releases of the church's view (because I haven't said the "v" word). Go figure, but apparently if you say you aren't in favor of controlling a woman's body and shaming her for her choices, that's just enough of an indicator of independent thought to raise a red flag.

In reference to women getting hysterectomies and men not getting vasectomies, it sends the message women are less important to the church in so many ways:

It's not as important she bear children, so much that he produces them.
Hysterectomies are much harder on women than they are on men. It's major surgery-vs-outpatient
It's my understanding a hysterectomy throws the woman's body into early menopause.

Even if only the first two are true, that sends a very clear message the church just isn't too concerned about women.

The church shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies; it shouldn't be telling men what to do with their bodies., If you determine that getting a vasectomy is the best way to go then I'm proud of you for taking responsibility in this way and it's none of my business!

Good observations. In my case my wife and I have produced 4 great kids, and both happen to be in our 40's now where any further child bearing is high risk. It's the next logical step. We both agreed that I would bear the easier burden of sterilization. I suppose this policy also exists for cases where young fertile people may rush to brash medical decisions they may regret later.

[Give It Time]

FiveFingerMnemonic, it's none of my business and I'm proud of you.

The reason I wax proudful is abortion, as we all know, has been in the news lately. Here are my views on abortion: I pretty much agree with the church, EXCEPT in this way. It occurred to me that I've been listening to this debate for about thirty years and it is almost, word for word, exactly the same debate I heard thirty years ago. We have made zero progress in this discussion. What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. I looked at the question in a new way. Now, I have learned we shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies. The last time I checked into these matters, it took both a male and a female to fertilize an egg. For as long as abortions have been done in closeted situations with coathangers, we've only been addressing the female aspect of this problem.

It's time to look at the man's contribution. The way I look at it, each individual who is against abortion should say, "I am against abortion and this is how I am controlling my reproductive system and my behavior". Each man says that for himself. Each woman says that for herself. Each couple determines the right decisions for themselves and it's no one else's business.

Now, I knew about that policy, so I'm careful how I phrase my views on this when I'm speaking to members. For some reason women still cry when I say this and men hand me press releases of the church's view (because I haven't said the "v" word). Go figure, but apparently if you say you aren't in favor of controlling a woman's body and shaming her for her choices, that's just enough of an indicator of independent thought to raise a red flag.

In reference to women getting hysterectomies and men not getting vasectomies, it sends the message women are less important to the church in so many ways:

It's not as important she bear children, so much that he produces them.
Hysterectomies are much harder on women than they are on men. It's major surgery-vs-outpatient
It's my understanding a hysterectomy throws the woman's body into early menopause.

Even if only the first two are true, that sends a very clear message the church just isn't too concerned about women.

The church shouldn't be telling women what to do with their bodies; it shouldn't be telling men what to do with their bodies., If you determine that getting a vasectomy is the best way to go then I'm proud of you for taking responsibility in this way and it's none of my business!

Good observations. In my case both my wife and I have produced 4 great kids, and both happen to be in our 40's now where any further child bearing is high risk. It's the next logical step. We both agreed that I would bear the easier burden of sterilization.

I think this is so fantastic on every level.

[Emower]

Has anyone known of any faithful man who actually did go to his bishop asking for permission for getting a vasectomy? While this is a distinctly personal question, it can't be any worse than questions about the operation of "little factories" regularly aimed at both youth and adults. My stake added in a new question to the temple rec interview, "Do you have a problem with porn?" I can only imagine the awkward conversations that might follow in the minds of the guilty.

The vasectomy question has surely arisen many times across the modern church.

My uncle did. He had 10 kids. Condoms just weren't working, apparently? Anyway, he decided to get snipped, then someone mentioned that was against policy. He looked it up and decided he needed to get permission. He didn't get a divine sanction, so he didn't do it. Know he has 11 kids. Crazy.

[Red Ryder]

I was snipped in 2009.

The handbook policy must be burned into the minds of the older generation. The week before my procedure my father in law comes over to the house to pick me up for an event. During the drive he asked if the wife and I had talked to the Bishop about it. I said, "No... Why would we? He's a dentist?"

[MalcolmVillager]

6 years ago after #5 DD was born, I wanted to get snipped as I was done. Didn't really pray super hard, but hard enough to have real intent (so, yeah, like 3 seconds). Told DW and that I was going to do it and that the HB2 (I was in a previous bishopric so I had found that during one of the extremely boring meetings) required us to talk to BP. Ahe thought I was joking bit TBM Malcolm insisted. So after another gross tithing settlement I excused the girls and asked to speak to BP without the kids.

We brought it up "we feel we have done our part in the multiply and replenish" commandment, prayed about it and we want to be "permanently done having kids". He was so confused. I think he thought something worse was coming.

He stumbled when he realized what we were asking and said, "oh, yeah, well I am sure the Lord is pleased with your contribution and that is completely between you guys!"

Anyway, old me felt so good to get permission to discuss something so awkward with my BP. Haha, I can believe it. I won't talk to BP about anything now. My business is mine alone.

[MerrieMiss]

My dad had a copy of the super-secret handbook when I was a teenager. He always left it with his scriptures and because I read anything I could, I read it front to back. Most of it was dull, but I remember reading this section.

21.4.15
Surgical Sterilization (Including Vasectomy)

The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer.

In reference to women getting hysterectomies and men not getting vasectomies, it sends the message women are less important to the church in so many ways:

It's not as important she bear children, so much that he produces them.
Hysterectomies are much harder on women than they are on men. It's major surgery-vs-outpatient

It struck me as very anti-woman at the time and I remember wondering what was so special about a man’s sperm that God didn't want him to get a vasectomy.

Another takeaway from reading the handbook was that for the first time I realized that there were church rules I was supposed to follow that I didn’t know about. This made me paranoid and I started wondering what things I may or may not be doing that conflicted with “the Lord’s will.”

[Give It Time]

There are times I've read excerpts form the CHI and thought, "oh really...who knew...oops!"

[Meilingkie]

Same here, I got snipped. and read the chapter later.
Tough luck, too many friends of mine in church have more kids than they can afford.

[2bizE]

Five finger,
Velcome to the vasectomy club. I had it a few years ago. When my wife announced it to my friend and his wife, the wife said my friend had already had it done. He was a bishop and didn't even know it was frowned on.
A few pointers for after you have it... you won't be shooting only blanks for several weeks. You will need to bring in a few samples for testing over the next month or so. The sterilized stallion will enjoy being free to play without being worried of any mishaps.

Enjoy.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Five finger,
Velcome to the vasectomy club. I had it a few years ago. When my wife announced it to my friend and his wife, the wife said my friend had already had it done. He was a bishop and didn't even know it was frowned on.
A few pointers for after you have it... you won't be shooting only blanks for several weeks. You will need to bring in a few samples for testing over the next month or so. The sterilized stallion will enjoy being free to play without being worried of any mishaps.

Enjoy.

Good advice, sounds like I will have to up my numbers from "rookie" numbers to ensure the pipes get cleared! Haha!

[Korihor]

Anyway, old me felt so good to get permission to discuss something so awkward with my BP. Haha, I can believe it. I won't talk to BP about anything now. My business is mine alone.

It is completely and exclusively one's own business. But how sad that the church has become an iron fist on so many subjects instead of a voice of counsel and support. It could be viewed as awkward discussing such matters with a bishop, but wouldn't it be so much more helpful to have a spiritual counsellor where you could openly discuss such matters? Maybe if we had true leadership like a pastor instead of rotating policy enforcement officers, it would open up true relationships.

"Bill, it's good to see you. How are you?
"Hi Mike (Bishop), I'm well, thanks. Listen, there's something I'd like to you get your input about.
"Sure Bill, what's up?"
"Well, I've been thinking about calling it quits and getting a vasectomy, but Mary wants another baby."
"Ah Bill, that a big decision. The first thing you need to do is go talk with Mary, not me. However, several other brothers in the ward have done that procedure, I could help you arrange a meeting with some to discuss it. I'm here to help however I can and I support you whatever your decision. May God bless you on your journey."

[MalcolmVillager]

So true but their first and foremost responsibility is judge in Israel (WTF) followed by policy enforcer.