This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
There's been a few interesting leaks over the past few months, but I think this one will be of interest to many members of this board.
This is a power point (or at least a few slides of it) that was presented to the Quorum of the Twelve regarding 17 threats to the church. It puts in bubbles who and what are contributing to people leaving the church.
I guess I'm not too surprised to see that John Dehlin has a bubble. But, I had to look up who Robert Norman was. Some of you may know of him (I guess he was a popular speaker at Education Week for years). Here's what is written about him over on MormonStories.org:
Robert Norman = Former 30+ year CES instructor w/ expertise in Old Testament. Former mission president. Believes he's seen Christ and Noah. Believes that he personally will usher in the 2nd coming of Christ. Believes that God sealed him to a new wife while his current wife was sick/dying. Was threatened with excommunication, and so resigned.
It also shows the Church's carefully worded denials regarding the intent of the Boise Rescue.
But the church denies last weekend’s meeting came in response to any of that. Eric Hawkins, church spokesman, told 2News in a statement, "Elder Oaks was not scheduled for an assignment that weekend so decided to use his free time to visit an area with a concentration of members, knowing that some members have questions from time to time that trouble them."
I've got a great idea to parody the bubble diagram! I'll return and report when I finish it from home.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
I wonder if the bubble diagram would have been shown to local ward and stake leaders during the "business" weekends. If so, they would have left it vague and general like it is on purpose in order to avoid directly pointing Leaders to the CES letter.
I'm sitting here wondering if any of these weekend trips correlate with the GA's taking ski trips, Hawaiian vacations, or trips to the fishing and hunting lodges.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2017 4:15 pm
It also shows the Church's carefully worded denials regarding the intent of the Boise Rescue.
It also shows carefully worded denials about how excommunications like John Dehlin (Confirmed Threat!) and Kate Kelly were not simply "local matters".
I agree! Here's something even more ironic in terms of the constant patriarchy and misogyny.
Notice that the "man threats" were named individually (Dehlin, Snuffer, Norman) but the women threats were not? It was Ordain Women and Last Days/end of world predictions instead of Kate Kelly and Julie Rowe.
Even their stupid bubble power points are misogynist!
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
That is interesting. I was wondering about bubble size, too. If that's the case, OW is a bigger threat than Dehlin.
I hate to say this, but I think OW isn't really that relevant, anymore. Traffic and posts are way down. I don't care much what they have to say, but that's because I think women are better off leaving the church, if they can.
I see an example of the church's tone deafness, here. They are calling the problem "Ordain Women", but if you ask the women and men who disagree with the church, they'll tell you the problem is patriarchy and as long as the church continues the victim blaming and make women the problem, rather than looking in the mirror, this problem will remain. In fact, this is something I believe could truly lead the church into irrelevancy.
I used to be bothered I didn't see my issues represented or I saw them over-generalized on lists like this. Now, I consider my invisibility a super power.
You know how they tell us to take our problems to local leadership? This is the feedback loop.
Also, my neighbor who is afraid to talk to me because of my "strong" opinions? None of those opinions appear in this PowerPoint. Too funny.
Well, I'm pretty sure I'm one of the more significant apostates in my ward. My bishop won't be able to tell them any visiting authorities anything.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
Do they really think that PORN is a reason people leave the church??? I think that's ridiculous. Yes, I left so I could view porn...
And I just re-read the info on Mormon Stories and it states that this power point was created BY THE 12, not FOR them. If true, it reveals even more to me!
******************
"There came a time when the desire to know the truth about the church became stronger than the desire to know the church was true."
I thought the same thing about porn. Is it really, not just a problem, but that big of one? Well, learning that it was written by the top dogs does skew things, slightly.
At 70 years-old, my older self would tell my younger self to use the words, "f*ck off" much more frequently. --Helen Mirren
They also fail to name which "policy" or policies that many people disagree with. I think there is a large number of people disagreeing with the church's whole doctrine/attitude toward LGBT. I can understand not specifically Naming the POX (policy of exclusion) because really that was a final straw for many people who disagreed with the church's position on same sex marriage, to prop 8, to excommunicating married gay and excommunicating anyone who does not go by their gender at birth. It isn't just one policy, but the whole attitude toward LGBT. But they failed to specify that it is LGBT issues people are disagreeing with. They seem afraid to say it.
And John D really is the same issue as problems with the history and he overlaps the other leftist issues, so why name him at all? He is not an independent problem separate from the others they mentioned.
And off to the right, they failed to mention poligamy. I personally know some who left the church to practice poligamy, but don't know anyone who left over the other issues, and historically, more people have left to continue poligamy than all of those other reasons combined.
On a positive note, they do list more than "because they wanted to sin" and "because they were offended." Also, they have recognized that people leave both because the church has changed too much and because it isn't changing enough.
The other thing of note from this presentation, at least as I read it, is how the chuch is getting hammered from all sides, not just the liberal progressives, but from the libertarian/apocalypic crowd. It's a lose-lose proposition for them; if they make some concessions to the rest of society on LBGT and women's issues, the Mormon Women Stand and LDS Freedom Forum types lose their minds. When they crow incessantly about religious freedom, they lose the progressive element. Essentially screwed no matter what they do. I'll just get my popcorn and watch from the sidelines to see how this plays out.
"And I don't need you...or, your homespun philosophies."
"And when you try to break my spirit, it won't work, because there's nothing left to break."
False prophets is as big a deal as Porn. There are a lot of porn sites out there. Must be a lot of false prophets, too.
I also caught the lie about oaks going to Boise as a last minute sight seeing event, or whatever the lie was. I'm sure that will come back to bite somebody.
I think it's interesting that they put everything on a political spectrum. This shows that they are very political people, and that they see the world primarily as US-centric.
Last edited by GoodBoy on Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Always been the good kid, but I wanted to know more, and to find and test truth.
Church employees probably need to come up with PowerPoint presentations like this so it appears they are doing their job. In the grand scheme of things, they are fretting over things which they cannot do much about and while not putting their finger on the underlying causes of why people leave. Never heard of Robert Norman before this.
Not much the Church can do about its history and foundational story. I would hate for them to start faking visions and voices to keep up with any emerging prophets. The one thing that they could do is emphasize the LDS Church rather than the LDS Corporation in its actions. I think the Ryan and Carrine push to view General Authorities and local leaders in a less idolatrous fashion is something that will benefit the Church.
Good faith does not require evidence, but it also does not turn a blind eye to that evidence. Otherwise, it becomes misplaced faith.
-- Moksha
I dislike categorizing why people are led away from the gospel into single issues. It is a journey that usually begins with an event (in my case, the local priesthood backing a man dangerous to children) and ends with an event (a threat of excommunication), but it misses out the journey of discovery. If this is representative of the biggest event in the exit of a Mormon, then I could see this as being fairly accurate with a few big exceptions.
So, I'm going to assume that what they mean is the "primary" issue and they are referring to people who have left, resigned, and / or been excommunicated.
Ordain Women: Yes, this was actually my ex-wife's main issue
John Dehlin (Mormon Stories in particular): Not as many as people think, but there are some in there
Disagreement with current policies: Yes, my 9-year old resigned over this without prompting from myself or my ex-wife
Secular (I assume they mean atheism): Yes, many
Incredulity over Church history: Yes, many
Chastity: Yes, I know an excommunicated member over an affair that said, "F- you, I'm out"
Language and cultural problems "-ites": Yes, a few
Denver Snuffer: Yes, I know one in particular
False prophets: Yes, I know one person who went full blow FLDS, not just polygamous
Last day / end of world practices: Many people over the years, in fact, just one recently
Church has lost its way or is deficient: Several
Need "something more": A few who became polygamists
I don't know anyone who has left the church, resigned, or been excommunicated over lack of righteousness, pornography, lack of commitment, or Sabbath keeping. However, I _do_ know a few people who have "left" the church in that they just stopped going. Although, in their cases, they are generally Jack Mormons and most of them will defend the church with far more gusto than those who are active, believing, and "righteous" Mormons.
I'm going to save my other thoughts for another post, though. It is too different from this one.
As I stated before, I think the orange and green apply to vocal critics and those who resign. I think the blue refer to those who are believers, but have gone inactive (mostly over the guilt trips they feel at church).
There are two massive bubbles missing.
I exited sideways (going into another sect of Christianity). I also work for other churches in a public facing role (organist). In any congregation where I have worked for more than an odd Sunday here or there (now three, Lutheran, UCC, and Episcopal) there are whispers that you were once a Mormon. Then many people who were once Mormon start talking to you. These are not secularists or political (orange) nor are they fundamental Mormons (green), but neither are the "sinners" (blue). Every congregation I have worked for has a handful of ex-Mormons in there.
I know more ex-Mormons through my job as an organist than I do when I participate in ex-Mormon groups. These people are not out there on forums, they aren't on Reddit, they aren't listening to podcasts, and they aren't filling out "where did you go?" surveys. They just moved on and because they found another tribe immediately, they aren't seeking out other ex-Mormons. This is what I really believe is the silent majority.
When I have conversations with ex-Mormons who just switched churches there are two GIANT reasons that are not addressed here.
1. They marry outside of the faith
2. They disagree with the theology of Mormonism
Out of everyone I know (and I'm going to say I probably know more than a hundred by now), I would say 3/4 of them fall into these two categories. Most of these people left Mormonism in their late teens and early twenties for this very reason. I'm a bit of an odd duck in that I left for another sect in my 30s rather than early 20s.
Personally, I think they know this inside and out. The reason there isn't a giant bubble on it is because they are already addressing this issue with the most powerful tools that they have: indoctrination and pressure to marry in the temple. The three hour block includes 2 hours of indoctrination (more than most churches, who have an optional 1 hour). When they become teenagers, they start attending one hour of seminary a day. When they turn 18, boys are pressured into serving a mission full time for two years. When the boys return home, they are pressured intensely to marry quickly to a Mormon girl, and only to marry in the temple. The rate of drop out at that point is minimized compared to the risk of late teens to early 20s dropping out. For the girls, the dropping of the age from 21 to 19 serves a similar purpose, they don't want discouraged 19 - 21 year old girls feeling the pressure to marry, but lacking a pool of Mormon men, they grab onto a righteous but outsider man and suddenly find themselves in a mixed marriage of a Presbyterian and a Mormon.
If you think about that indoctrination, a young man who is fully active in most other Christian faith will receive 2,080 hours of indoctrination (1 hour of church, 1 hour of Sunday school) for 20 years. A young man who is fully active in the Mormon church will receive 4,212 hours of indoctrination (3 hours of church, general conference, stake conference, mutual, seminary) by the time he is 18. That is more than 2 times the amount of indoctrination than their other Christian counterparts. If they serve a mission, that adds on 10,816 hours of indoctrination (your life IS church at that point). This isn't including scripture study and other such things. This is 15,028 hours of indoctrination over the course of 20 years.
Why is that? Why is there so much training of the youth, because they realize that the two biggest darn bubbles on that list are so large that they don't even have to be addressed. They are pouring MILLIONS of dollars into these programs, if not BILLIONS to maintain membership of these young people.
Perhaps this slide (and the report) is addressing people who leave AFTER they have completed their indoctrination program.
