Mormons and the Anabaptists

[fh451]

I was listening to Dan Carlin's "Hardcore History" podcast about the siege of Munster in 1535, and couldn't help noticing the rather striking parallels between Jan van Lieden and Joseph Smith. Apparently I'm not the only one, because there are several references out there if you Google "Joseph Smith Anabaptists", such as IndieMormon: Prophets of Doom. A charismatic guy claims to have a direct conduit to God, garners lots of fanatical followers, introduces unorthodox marriage/sexual practices as well as communistic sounding living arrangements, and ends up dead at the hands of the opposition. At least Joseph didn't have to endure the torture inflicted on van Lieden - it was pretty gruesome.

It made me wonder if Joseph Smith actually knew about van Lieden and the Anabaptists or if that's just a pattern of behavior with religious zealots. Modern versions of this same phenomenon include the likes of David Koresh and Jim Jones.

fh451

[LaMachina]

This is one of the most influential podcasts I've ever listened to. I listened to it when it first came out and the parallels hit me hard. I doubt this had any influence on Joseph though, this sort of scenario seems par for the course when people start down these paths.

[Red Ryder]

Corsair mentioned this one on a podcast recommendation post on the old board. I agree with LaMachina, it was influential for me as well. I also agree the pattern is consistent. There are too many examples in history.

[Emower]

I'm going to go find this. Sounds really good.

[moksha]

This is one of the most influential podcasts I've ever listened to.

http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardco ... s-of-doom/

[Corsair]

Dan Carlin is not LDS at all and has no real interest in Mormons. But this podcast lays out a compelling model of how the LDS church could have been founded through entirely human means. This story is complete with revelation, new scripture, plural marriage, a gathering of saints, persecution, the United Order, a succession crisis, and the over arching expectation of the end times culminating with Christ's return. The history of the LDS church is just not that interesting when an entirely secular version already happened in Munster, Germany in 1534. A divine hand is claimed in an 1830 restoration in New York, but "Prophets of Doom" deconstructs it thoroughly.

[moksha]

I've never listened to a podcast this long in my entire life. Most are boring. This one was boring until it got to the part of what lead up to the John of Leiden story and then it became too intriguing to stop. When the initial post mentioned the parallels to Joseph Smith there should have been triple explanation points. It was like when the subject of religion and polygamy intersect, there is a time hiccup. Thankfully, Nauvoo was never under siege like Leiden.

If you want an in-depth history story, listen to the podcast.

http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardco ... s-of-doom/

[Enoch Witty]

I randomly listened to this a year or two ago, but it was when I was still an unhappy Mormon who had not yet come to terms with his disbelief nor learned any of the messy historical issues that are so jarring to learn after decades of church "education." Perhaps I need to give it another listen with my new viewpoints in order.

[Meilingkie]

To do a Jan van Leiden is still a Dutch saying.
Zich ergens met een Jantje van Leiden vanaf maken.

Meaning: To do something quick and dirty.

Often referred to people doing their work unprofessionally or carelessly.

The cage in which Jan van Leiden was hung in Munster Belltower still hangs there

[Corsair]

To do a Jan van Leiden is still a Dutch saying.
Zich ergens met een Jantje van Leiden vanaf maken.

Meaning: To do something quick and dirty.

Often referred to people doing their work unprofessionally or carelessly.

The cage in which Jan van Leiden was hung in Munster Belltower still hangs there

Thanks for the Dutch saying! That adds some perspective on this fascinating story as it is not known well in the United States. Perhaps we need some new sayings around other apocalyptic prophets.

[fh451]

Thanks for the Dutch saying! That adds some perspective on this fascinating story as it is not known well in the United States. Perhaps we need some new sayings around other apocalyptic prophets.

"Pulling a Joseph" could cover a lot of ground!

fh451

[Emower]

Wow, I just listened to this. Not quite done, but the parallels are shocking. The walky talky with God thing was spot on for Joseph. Got a problem? "Oh hey guys, I just got a revelation!"

It makes you wonder if Mormonism could have got this crazy if Joseph had lived longer? I think it might have. One could argue that it was that crazy. The army did come out to subdue the saints in Utah at one point. If they had been more interested in polygamy than in statehood it could have gotten real.

The succession between the two Jan's was also interesting. Brigham did not get much weirder than Joseph had been, but he was just as charismatic.

[Emower]

It made me wonder if Joseph Smith actually knew about van Lieden and the Anabaptists or if that's just a pattern of behavior with religious zealots. Modern versions of this same phenomenon include the likes of David Koresh and Jim Jones.

fh451

This seems to be a common cult/religious leader behavior to me. It seems that plenty of leaders who focus on central power structures and exclusive right to divine communication seem to end up with the same issues. It makes me crazy that Mormons can't or won't acknowledge the parallels.

[GoodBoy]

I also found this story very mind opening. It showed me that there are lots of people throughout history that are like Joseph Smith.

The story about the man who believed that God was going to destroy the Bishop's forces through him alone, and he rode out to fight the entire army by himself. He honestly believed he was talking to God and that God told him to go fight these guys. Of course he was immediately killed and they ended up nailing his scrotum to the the town gate.

Many of the church leaders similarly really do believe that God is talking to them. They have no doubt in their minds that they are right. The more sure they are, the more intolerant and militant they tend to be. Doubt tends to make people much more tolerant and generally easier to get along with. This is also supported by how polytheists (like Hindus) tend to be much more tolerant of divergent beliefs and cultures that monotheists (like Muslims, Jews and many Christians).

[Emower]

Hmmm. Well I just finished it. I gotta say when carlin started talkin about the sexual deviancy I thought "is this going to go where I think it is going to go?" Yup it sure did. Polygamy seems to go hand in hand with a "new" prophet paradigm.

[document]

I just finished it.

My response in reading the "similarities" was a series of "well, yes there is a correlation, but that's pretty common".

After about fifteen of those, and when the housemaid, polygamy, and being anointed king of the world happens, it changed from "well that's pretty common" to just a big ol' fat o_O.