How John Spong damaged my wife's testimony

[Hagoth]

If you haven't listened to John Spong's interview about Bible liberalism on Radio West you have really missed something remarkable, in my opinion.

Mrs. Hagoth and I each heard different portions of it while driving and later compared notes on what we had heard. I downloaded it and listened. Whe3n she brought it up again I downloaded it onto her iPad for her.

A few days later she told me that interview had done more damage to her testimony than anything else she's encountered. The thing that flattened her souffle was Spong's suggestion that going to church to beg God on our knees for mercy is a warped concept created by people substituting institutional control for God's will, because it is not the kind of relationship that a loving parent would ever desire from their children, and that it is damaging to think of ourselves as broken, fallen sinners in need of redemption, rather than loved, wanted children who need nurturing more than fear of retribution. Once you let that thought into your head, once you see through the "saved a wretch like me" rhetoric, the whole narrative of needing a redeemer to save us from a state of corruption initiated by a snake with fruit kinda goes out the window.

As a result we've had a lot of good discussion about things like repentance and redemption and how those might be better considered symbolic of ways to help ourselves find peace and restoration at the personal level, rather than dance steps for following the convoluted prescriptions of men claiming to speak for God.

Spong's new book is Bible Literalism: A Gentile Heresy. Has anybody out there read it? I'm really looking forward to reading it when I get some spare time (none in site so far).

[deacon blues]

Very interesting. Does she seem happier about things?

I've read some Spong before, for example "Why the ...Church must Change or Die" You have piqued my interest.

There's always time for reading.

[Gatorbait]

Years ago I stumbled onto a book that he'd written, "Jesus for the Nonreligious" and I thought he was on new and better path for Christians. He was refreshingly candid about the possibility that the Bible was simply a collection of stories, and even though the stories had been accepted by the Christian world....it didn't mean that the stories are true.

One of the things he highlighted was the Judas betrayal of Christ. He said he didn't believe that at all. Totally made up to make the Jews a scapegoat.

Some of his ideas, I think, are better than others. He basically says over and over that if there is life after death, you don't need to be a Christian to get there....you just die, and things will be sorted out. No burning in hell for the bad folks. No devil and his fallen angels. No angels with wings. Nothing like that. Things that a lot of us have believed for most of our life, and things that make sense.

If I do good things- I feel good, and that is the reward. If I do bad things....I don't feel good and no reward. Pretty simple stuff really.

Anyways, he's got some good ideas.

[moksha]

One of the things he highlighted was the Judas betrayal of Christ. He said he didn't believe that at all. Totally made up to make the Jews a scapegoat.

It was a story with an all-Jewish cast, except for the politician and soldiers. Jews were also cast as the heroes. In the Old Testament, they got to do all manner of carnage with the blessings of the Top Guy who also favored them and they wrote that book.

[No Tof]

I couldn't find that podcast but am listening to another one called Evolving Faith by John.

Seems to be a religionist who makes more sense then anyone else I've ever listened too.

He almost persuades me to be a christian.

[moksha]

Bishop John Shelby Spong as an old guy.

He knows a thing or two because he's seen a thing or two.

[Hagoth]

There's always time for reading.

You're right, and as a full-time student I'm doing stacks and stacks of it. I feel guilty reading something on my own because it makes me feel like I'm neglecting my studies. Standard Mormon guilt!

[document]

I've read a few of Bishop Spong's books. I have enjoyed them and his non-literal approach to religion really resonates with me. It also makes me feel "safe" when I'm in a pew at my church, knowing that one of our Bishop holds very similar views to mine.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Here is the radio west story link. It's a great episode.

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/biblical-literalism

[No Tof]

Just finished the interview and just want to say thanks. Nice to hear some good voices out there expressing a rational view of religion.

Appreciate the link fivefn.

[Raylan Givens]

I listened to the interview (Doug has gotten better at interviewing, he used to lead people on like Dehlin-who has gotten better too). Anywho.

I mentioned to my wife I can't believe some things literally. She called me out and said, "you are using words "that guy" mentioned on RadioWest..."

I am so glad my ex mormon friend sent she and I a link to it on Facebook Messenger. I told her I don't think he knows all, but I like the language he uses, gives me vocabulary to express how I feel.

[deacon blues]

I've been reading the "Bible Literalism ....." book and Spong made a point that I'd never quite connected with before. In Mark 3 it speaks of Jesus's family coming to get him because they believe he is "beside himself" or crazy. Spong points out that if Mark was aware of the accounts of Jesus's birth in Matthew and Luke (about divine intervention in Jesus's birth) he wouldn't have written that Jesus's family came to get him because they thought he was crazy. Surely, if Mary had been visited by Gabriel, she wouldn't have been thinking 30 years later, "my son Jesus is crazy, we need to go get him."

This is another strong indicator of the primacy of the Gospel of Mark, but it also throws a shade of fabrication over the nativity accounts.Those are among my favorite parts of the Bible. Oh well. The search for Truth always has a few bumps in the road.

[Charlotte]

Thanks for the link. The interview is very thought-provoking. I'm not sure I want to "go there" with Spong, but I don't want to be here, either.

He talked about his physicist daughter saying something to the effect of: Churches have the answers to questions that no one is asking anymore.