Holy Fetch! (Update…)

[AllieOop]

Susan Hinckley has a soothing voice and is able to articulate the problems very eloquently without anger.

I'm not familiar with her, RR. How or is she related to Pres. Hinckley?

[Red Ryder]

Susan Hinckley has a soothing voice and is able to articulate the problems very eloquently without anger.

I'm not familiar with her, RR. How or is she related to Pres. Hinckley?

I’m really not sure. I don’t believe directly related but I’ll have to see if I can find out.

[Jeffret]

Thanks Jeffret! I’ll be honest and admit the uncertainty does feel a bit unsettling here because in many LDS marriages the church has always been the anchor. Pull up the anchor and suddenly we both have to start doing the work to keep the marriage alive and healthy. I’ve seen too many couples go through divorce during or after a faith crisis. I think that’s what’s unsettling for me at the moment. Although I don’t feel like that’s going to happen, it’s just unsettling based on the uncertainty of where this goes.

You've figured out how to do the dance up to this point. And then the partner starts improvising. It's unsettling because we don't know where it will end. Of course, we did the same to our partners when we first started down this road.

Or as Garrison Keillor said, “The rules for marriage are the same as for a lifeboat. No sudden moves, don’t crowd the other person, and keep all disastrous thoughts to yourself.” But, Keillor may not be the best source for such advice, having been married three times. And more importantly, life has a tendency to rock the boat for us, sometimes in dramatic fashion. While it's a bad idea to intentionally disrupt the relationship, it will only survive if we do the things to sustain it, before and during the times we hit the rocks.

It's true that a number of marriages become adrift once the Church no longer ties them together. But also many do hold together. It comes down to fundamentally who the people involved are and how their relationship is built. But many of them also endure. And a lot of marriages that have nothing to do with faith transitions unfortunately fail. In my case, we had always put each other and our relationship as a high priority. We've gone through a lot of changes besides faith. We keep working on those things that help nurture a relationship, most importantly spending real time together.

Episode 016: We Don’t Believe Our Own Stuff — Grace Edition

I've said this one for a long time. Mormons really don't believe their own teachings about grace. They like to characterize it as grace vs. works and prioritize works. Some Christians criticize this, often baselessly. But really, Mormons don't believe what they say about grace. Some Christians knowledgeable about Mormonism criticize that and that criticism is very true. Mormons say they believe in the Atonement, but they don't really believe the Atonement. (There are many, many examples, but one of the clearest is the old nail in the block of wood object lesson. Or pretty much the entirety of "The Miracle of Forgiveness", which should be re-titled, "It's a Miracle if You Ever Get Forgiveness".)

[Angel]

For marriage, mine held together but it took work. Fill the gap. New traditions. Bike every Sunday, cook together, dog park, volunteer, support one another ❤. Trauma bonded Best wishes!!

[Toe-the-line]

Thanks everyone for the love and well wishes! This NOM ward is amazing. Excellent advice to take it slow and get help as needed.

Thanks Jeffret! I’ll be honest and admit the uncertainty does feel a bit unsettling here because in many LDS marriages the church has always been the anchor. Pull up the anchor and suddenly we both have to start doing the work to keep the marriage alive and healthy. I’ve seen too many couples go through divorce during or after a faith crisis. I think that’s what’s unsettling for me at the moment. Although I don’t feel like that’s going to happen, it’s just unsettling based on the uncertainty of where this goes.

Congrats RR! What matters is how well the two of you connect. Do you care about her feelings? Does she care about yours? Is there communication? Trust and safety? Is the balance of power even? Not all marriages are worth saving, but if the relationship is one you care deeply about and both of you are working towards bettering, I don't see any reason why it would have to end in divorce.

[AllieOop]

Susan Hinckley has a soothing voice and is able to articulate the problems very eloquently without anger.

I'm not familiar with her, RR. How or is she related to Pres. Hinckley?

I’m really not sure. I don’t believe directly related but I’ll have to see if I can find out.

Thanks....I'm just curious. (I tried to do a search, but couldn't find much.)

[Red Ryder]

Congrats RR! What matters is how well the two of you connect. Do you care about her feelings? Does she care about yours? Is there communication? Trust and safety? Is the balance of power even? Not all marriages are worth saving, but if the relationship is one you care deeply about and both of you are working towards bettering, I don't see any reason why it would have to end in divorce.

We did a bout of marriage counseling about 5 years ago and came away focused with new skills to communicate and nurture our relationship. It’s worked and we’ve been in a decent place for awhile. I don’t think either of us think a divorce is on the horizon. I guess my comments are more centered on the unknown and uncertainty of a future without the church anchor. I’ve coined the term “replacement therapy” to describe our future. Instead of church, how about the great outdoors? Instead of boring sundays, we take up oil painting and drink wine?

Or like this sort of thing like Angel posted below. Love this!

For marriage, mine held together but it took work. Fill the gap. New traditions. Bike every Sunday, cook together, dog park, volunteer, support one another ❤. Trauma bonded Best wishes!!

Thanks Jeffret for this. You’re right we’ve danced this long with two left feet. Let’s see how dancing feels when in sync?

You've figured out how to do the dance up to this point. And then the partner starts improvising. It's unsettling because we don't know where it will end. Of course, we did the same to our partners when we first started down this road.

Or as Garrison Keillor said, “The rules for marriage are the same as for a lifeboat. No sudden moves, don’t crowd the other person, and keep all disastrous thoughts to yourself.” But, Keillor may not be the best source for such advice, having been married three times. And more importantly, life has a tendency to rock the boat for us, sometimes in dramatic fashion. While it's a bad idea to intentionally disrupt the relationship, it will only survive if we do the things to sustain it, before and during the times we hit the rocks.

It's true that a number of marriages become adrift once the Church no longer ties them together. But also many do hold together. It comes down to fundamentally who the people involved are and how their relationship is built. But many of them also endure. And a lot of marriages that have nothing to do with faith transitions unfortunately fail. In my case, we had always put each other and our relationship as a high priority. We've gone through a lot of changes besides faith. We keep working on those things that help nurture a relationship, most importantly spending real time together.

I’ll continue to update as things develop. We’ve had some really good breakthrough conversations. She was mildly surprised I remembered her temple name and now knows my temple new name!

[RubinHighlander]

A big congrats Red!

One suggestion I'll make is to give her some solid ground to land on, that being in nature. Get out of town, go to the mountains, find a lake, do some overnights/quality hours out in the great outside (preferably on a Sunday). Get to some dark skies and look at the Milky Way. Those are things that provide a space, set and setting that could help her find her own spirituality and give her some confidence or hope that she will be okay to walk away from it. I think that's what helped me the most and helped my DW when she hit her faith crisis.

Cheers bro and Gods speed!

[græy]

Man, I've been out of the loop for a while here. This is great, Red! Congratulations to Sister Ryder for gaining a new understanding! Congratulations to you for gaining some more common ground with her!

I hope things continue to progress and work out the best for both of you!


edit: That was a lot of exclamation marks. I'm just so happy for you...

[Red Ryder]

It’s been a few weeks now and an update is in order.

Sis R continues to burn through podcasts including a few Mormon Stories episodes now. Her focus continues to be around the patriarchy, polygamy, and cultural issues specifically surrounding women and their roles (or lack thereof) in the church.

She’s ordered a few books and has found a strong interest in seeking out the feminine divine. Heavenly Mother is important to her and Carolyn Pearson has a great book of poetry if anyone is interested.

She’s found her voice and jumped in on a few tough conversations with her family. Specifically when a few comments came up regarding polygamy when her mom saw her reading the ghost of eternal polygamy. As usual, the standard answer was “god won’t make me practice polygamy..” and “that’s not doctrine…” or “Joseph Smith/Brigham Young never said that…”. She pushed back and quoted the exact words from JS/BY directly from her book. Needless to say, Mormons don’t know their own doctrines or belief their own stuff. Mom quickly muttered some worries about her readings and then quickly changed the subject.

In other news, during her next temple recommend interview when she is asked if she wears the temple garment day/night, she can answer yes/no! Unsurprisingly, marriage relations have increased significantly now that Jesus and his Jammies have been kicked out of the bed. I’ll leave it at that to maintain privacy! Yeeeeeeehaw!

Word of wisdom has been maintained but some experimentation has occurred. Some worrisome conversations have occurred and we’ve found it best to take things slow. I’ll leave it there for now.

Church attendance has been very limited over the last few weeks as we’ve been traveling for planned summer vacations and quick weekend get aways. It’s been noticed with a few calls from the ward here and there. Finally a calling was extended and accepted with some hesitation working with the youth.

Emotionally, it’s hard to express how amazing, scary, happy, sad, etc all of this is. While things are moving slow today, we both hold out that “the right to change minds” exists.

I’ll update more as things continue to progress. I’m hesitant to type out a lot of this due to respecting her privacy but feel it’s an important part of my story. You all know that a mixed faith marriage isn’t easy and that patience and love will win out in the end. Our relationship has always been focused on each other rather than putting the church first. I consider myself lucky and know that not everyone has the same experience. All I can say is never give up. One point to make is that I still fully believe that everyone has to have their own individual spiritual journey on their own time and pace. Supporting our loved ones while they go through it is difficult but rewarding.

[Hagoth]

... now that Jesus and his Jammies have been kicked out of the bed....Yeeeeeeehaw!

Based on your previous posts on this topic, it sounds like Public Enemy Number One has been conquered.

[Mormorrisey]

While things are moving slow today, we both hold out that “the right to change minds” exists.

I don't know how to express how wise this sentiment is. That slows everything down, takes time to process new ideas and thought processes, and holds out a safety net to return to familiar ideas in case this is moving too quickly. I'm quite impressed with this concept. I think this is what will save all of us still in mixed faith marriages, and I'm sure to remember this if....

It constantly amazes me what it is that changes ideas and moves people in new directions, and thanks for the update, RR. While Sis M's titanium shelf has no impending worry of cracking any time soon, I have seen several smoothing of the dogmatic edges, and I'll tell that tale when I have some time.

But I ain't threadjacking this incredibly interesting and exciting news from the RR family. Keep us posted!

[crazyhamster]

Hey RR! It's been a while since I've been on this board, as my journey continues the church seems further and further behind in the rear view mirror. The recent AP story prompted me to come back to see the discussion, but I landed on this thread right away. I'm very happy to see that your relationship with your wife continues to grow and that she is beginning to understand the issues. Excellent idea to take things slow, or as I did let them happen at their natural speed. (sometimes that's fast and you gotta roll with it!)

Keep us posted and sending all my best!

[Hermey]

RR, so happy for you and for her. I'm going through the same thing right now with my wife. She's just a little farther along now. Your wife will process and progress at her pace as she is ready. I have to quietly remind myself of that each time my wife shares a little of her thoughts with me. Mostly I just try to hold space for her. Be present. Just listen, validate, and acknowledge. She needs to feel safe in opening up to you with her thoughts, feelings, and fears. Don't try and solve or short-cut what she is going through. It hurts and it's scary, but it's her journey. Growth can be painful. She'll share as she is able to.

Something else to keep in mind. And it's something that you haven't been through the same way because you went down it first. She will likely start to reflect on how she treated or dealt with you as you went down the rabbit hole and feel bad for some of it as she begins to gain new understanding. This crap is hard enough without heaping on an extra layer of guilt. So, I try and soften it and reassure her that we are good.

Funny story with her today....

We attended her family's annual Cousin's Picnic today. I've been almost all of them over them over the last 29 years and I always enjoy going. They're good folks, doing the best they can, and have never made me feel less than since leaving. This year's event was definitely one of the highlights. She had some interesting (quiet) conversations with a few different family members and discovered she isn't alone. The icing on the cake was getting in the car to leave the park (where she and I were the last ones) and the next thing I know, she looked around and stripped off her garments and put her clothes back on without them. She had worn them over her normal underwear just so as to avoid questions from the polygamy panty police. She had a flight to catch right after and figured it was the best place to change out of them because we were short on time and she wasn't about to travel in them.

I couldn't have imagined being where we are today this same time last year. Makes me smile.

[Red Ryder]

Your wife will process and progress at her pace as she is ready. I have to quietly remind myself of that each time my wife shares a little of her thoughts with me. Mostly I just try to hold space for her. Be present. Just listen, validate, and acknowledge. She needs to feel safe in opening up to you with her thoughts, feelings, and fears. Don't try and solve or short-cut what she is going through. It hurts and it's scary, but it's her journey. Growth can be painful. She'll share as she is able to.

Something else to keep in mind. And it's something that you haven't been through the same way because you went down it first. She will likely start to reflect on how she treated or dealt with you as you went down the rabbit hole and feel bad for some of it as she begins to gain new understanding. This crap is hard enough without heaping on an extra layer of guilt. So, I try and soften it and reassure her that we are good.

Yes, I just love how so many of us have been able to capture the exact same experiences leaving the church and now working through a spouse leaving. I’ve become an active listener and she’s noticed and appreciated the space to process. We now listen to her podcasts together and it’s reopened a few wounds that I had thought had long past healed.

Your second paragraph really hits home. We’ve had so many conversations about how she feels she didn’t give me a fair chance. That she was always defensive and favored the church. I’ve reassured her that she was only reacting to the way we’ve been taught to react when questioning the church.

Love the garment story!

[Red Ryder]

Hey RR! It's been a while since I've been on this board, as my journey continues the church seems further and further behind in the rear view mirror. The recent AP story prompted me to come back to see the discussion, but I landed on this thread right away. I'm very happy to see that your relationship with your wife continues to grow and that she is beginning to understand the issues. Excellent idea to take things slow, or as I did let them happen at their natural speed. (sometimes that's fast and you gotta roll with it!)

Keep us posted and sending all my best!

Hey Hamster! Hope you are doing well! When are you headed to the Grand Canyon again?

[crazyhamster]

Hey RR! It's been a while since I've been on this board, as my journey continues the church seems further and further behind in the rear view mirror. The recent AP story prompted me to come back to see the discussion, but I landed on this thread right away. I'm very happy to see that your relationship with your wife continues to grow and that she is beginning to understand the issues. Excellent idea to take things slow, or as I did let them happen at their natural speed. (sometimes that's fast and you gotta roll with it!)

Keep us posted and sending all my best!

Hey Hamster! Hope you are doing well! When are you headed to the Grand Canyon again?

After a way too long three year break, coming back end of this October!

[MoPag]

Yay for Sis R!!! Keep encouraging her to nurture her relationship with Heavenly Mother. I've noticed in most Mormon and post Mormon feminist spaces, once someone gets really into HM, it's easier for them to just say to hell with the rest of the church.

[græy]

I'm so excited for you guys! Its got to feel so great to be building a common ground in this space again. You and Sister R are now my official and yet unannounced heroes, and I hope to one day follow in your footsteps.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Noice!! High five.