What is really wrong with the church?

[MerrieMiss]

I found this while searching for something else, and with the loss of posts on the old NOM, I thought I would share this here. I hope neither Zadok nor lostinmiddlemormonism minds. Here is the reddit link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... he_church/

I am banned from NOM (New Order Mormon), but those people are my good friends, and so I lurk there from time to time. I had my attention drawn to the following post and have never read something as clear or well written as this. This is something that I hope someone from the COB will read and understand. I can not, and do not take credit for it, the original poster was a person on NOM by the name of: "Lostinmiddlemormonism" I have made a few edits and paragraph breaks to make it a little easier to read.

I believe I could help the church out considerably with their missionary work endeavors, but I fear they are not really interested in real improvement.

However, for all of our friends in the church office building that are reading this, I shall over some feedback, without even charging for the consulting provided.

Let us start by talking about what the problems in missionary work are not:

1. It is NOT a lack of missionaries out in the "mission field"
2. It is NOT a lack of money and resources devoted to the program
3. It is NOT that the members are "slacking" or unmotivated
4. It is NOT that the missionaries are "unworthy"
5. It is NOT that the missionaries need to work harder
6. It is NOT that there needs to be a new program
7. It is NOT a problem with the approach
8. It is NOT a problem of language or communication
9. It is NOT that members don't have non-member friends
10. Nor is it that the members are scared to talk to their friends about the church.

Here it is in a nut shell - The problem is the product. The problem is that the members wouldn't wish the church on their worst enemies let alone their friends.

Most members - even the active ones- do not leave church on Sunday feeling measurably better than when they went in. They are not "uplifted". They are frustrated, saddened, and upset. Nearly everything is done half-assed.

The EQ President is only doing his calling because he was guilted into it. The cub master doesn't want to be in scouts, but feels obligated because his son is in the program. The RS President is trying to be a funeral organizer, guidance counselor, principle, mother, wife, and welfare consultant all rolled into one and wonders why she isn't "good enough." The YW have a budget that wouldn't run a lemonade stand, and the idea of a fun ward activity is a potluck dinner in a smelly gymnasium that hasn't been cleaned effectively because the members are supposed to do that to, in their spare time.

The home teachers and visiting teachers (aka all the adults in the ward) are spending 3 evenings a month chasing down people that don't want to be visited. Not to mention the lies that they are forced to tell themselves in order to fit into this supposed ward family. They can't tell the truth that they find the temple weird, that they support gay marriage, or that they really don't want to spend two years of their life pushing religion on people that are perfectly happy without it for fear of being labeled a social pariah.

The problem is most ethical and moral human beings wouldn't wish the church on anyone. They intrinsically recognize that the church is to religion what McDonalds is to a fine dining experience. It is bland, it is cheap, and it is barely functional. The average member, even if they don't recognize it consciously, understands the truism that "what is good in Mormonism is not unique, and what is unique is not very good." When individuals do "share the gospel", what happens. Research your own experience and that of your friends. Someone posts a pro LDS thought to Twitter, or Facebook. Who likes it? Other members! That's it! No one else, and the majority of those members only "like" it because they feel obligated to.

Give the average member the choice of attending the temple or a recently released movie (Star Wars) and most will pick the latter every time. This is especially true if they aren't trying to demonstrate to the questioner how righteous they are. Why is this? Because, they get more fulfillment out of the movie at the local Cine-mark than they do from the movie at the International House of Handshakes. Give members a choice of an early summer boat trip on the first Saturday of April or watching conference and what will most pick? Why?

The problem isn't the sales force folks. The problem is that the product does not work as advertised. If the membership of the church was actually getting out of their church experience what they say they are getting out of it, then you wouldn't be able to stop them from dragging their friends in the door, and more importantly, their friends would quickly recognize it. Why does everyone have an I-phone or a droid in their pocket? Because they work. Because they add value to their life. Because there is a real and measurable benefit. Why is the missionary program stagnant? Because it doesn't deliver what it promises.

And so my friends in the COB, until you fix this very fundamental problem. It won't matter what you do with the missionary effort or what cool new program you try. Until you fix that flaw, anything else is doomed to failure, and to make matters worse, putting this repetitively on the members only exacerbates the problem.

[Enoch Witty]

This post is extremely excellent, but what I really want to commend is the term the "International House of Handshakes." That is masterful.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

That about sums it up. So well done.

[Hagoth]

I object!! McDonalds is highly functional!

[2bizE]

I'm going to share this with my TBM wife and see what she thinks.

[Red Ryder]

Oh the memories.

So much good content down the memory hole.

[MalcolmVillager]

So true. They think the response is to tweet staged service and double down on religious freedom.

Some companies think the sales and marketing are failing, when in reality the product has failed to keep up with the market and preferences change.

Of course the "haters" writing crap like this will never convince the leaders or their echo chamber of the need to change.

[20/20hind]

Brilliant. I would hire whomever wrote that.

[Silver Girl]

This is great - can we get this person back into the fold here on the new NOM?

[Its_Complicated]

I can only talk from my experience as someone who left the church as a Priest, came back and not be sealed as a family in the Temple but.. When I came back to the church after 11 years, I knew very little about the Temple ordinances, church discipline and most of the "grown up" stuff. Essentially, I came back to the church looking for that Sunday experience, how many of the investigators see the church for the first time before they dive in.

After you introduce the Temple ordinances, Eternal Families, Tithing Settlement and all the other things, do people wonder what they get into? After they go through the Temple, which (from what I understand) is a unique experience, how do people feel about the church? Do they feel broadsided? I know I did, and I haven't been through the Temple at all.

If you were to look at the church from a purely Sunday experience or (a step further) HT/VT eyes, would the church be better or worse? Eliminate the ordinances, authority, Eternal Families and the rest.. Is that church enough of a church to be a positive in people's lives? I think it is..

[MoPag]

Thanks for sharing this MM!

This needs to be NOM canonized. My fave:

Here it is in a nut shell - The problem is the product. The problem is that the members wouldn't wish the church on their worst enemies let alone their friends.

I remember a work friend of mine asking about the church once. And I started to tell her the basic stuff. (this was back in my TBM days) And then I remember thinking: I shouldn't share the gospel with her. She is happy. If I introduce her to the church she will learn that she shouldn't be working, She should be married and at home having babies. And I don't think she wants that for herself. ( I guess I wasn't a very good TBM after all)

[2bizE]

Back in my TBM days, I was talking with a bunch of coworkers ( not in Utah) about my church. When I explained we met for three hours each Sunday they all about fell over. 3 hours!!! This pretty much eliminates any interest in the church. Our church is such a time investment. All give and little take. Actually, what do we take?? Oh, blessings in heaven.

[Newme]

Playing devil's advocate...

Part of the church product is good. A friend who recently converted said he's never been so happy nor felt so loved. He's a confirmed bachelor and was lonely before but now feels like he has a ward family who's rallied around him. He's unaware of how conditional their love probably is, but still, he has derived great benefit from the sense of community. It is a valuable thing that many people need. "Loneliness is the worst poverty" (said Mother Teresa) and the church is an anecdote for that.

Another point is that no matter what religious upbringing, most human beings have temptations to do what is pleasurable for the moment - to have sex with whoever whenever, to drink, do drugs, lie, cheat and steal. I realize this happens in the church, but the ideals - the principles to live with integrity are not what I'd call a bad product. They're good - just maybe applied in cherry-picked ways. Gluttony (being overweight) is ok - but smoking cigarettes isn't etc.

Ok, now angel's advocate... (or whatever )
The church inspires mental illness and financial dishonesty - those are inherently bad -even evil. Deep down, members must realize this on some level, and not feel really good about sharing it with others, because they themselves have felt anxiety, shame and financial stress or pressure. These are facts that can be substantiated easily - but they are often ignored because the sense of community and the other good aspects are too good to let go of and of course the church teaches all-or-nothing/polarized thinking.

[Newme]

I can only talk from my experience as someone who left the church as a Priest, came back and not be sealed as a family in the Temple but.. When I came back to the church after 11 years, I knew very little about the Temple ordinances, church discipline and most of the "grown up" stuff. Essentially, I came back to the church looking for that Sunday experience, how many of the investigators see the church for the first time before they dive in.

After you introduce the Temple ordinances, Eternal Families, Tithing Settlement and all the other things, do people wonder what they get into? After they go through the Temple, which (from what I understand) is a unique experience, how do people feel about the church? Do they feel broadsided? I know I did, and I haven't been through the Temple at all.

If you were to look at the church from a purely Sunday experience or (a step further) HT/VT eyes, would the church be better or worse? Eliminate the ordinances, authority, Eternal Families and the rest.. Is that church enough of a church to be a positive in people's lives? I think it is..

Yeah - exactly! I think it's good if you just take the basics, and keep some boundaries.
The idea of "moderation in all good things" applies to religion too. A study sought to discover what influence, if any, religion had on physical healing. Out of 3 groups, the 2 that did poorest were those extremely religiously involved and those not involved at all. Those who did best were those who were moderately involved.
Take the best, leave the rest!

[Spicy McHaggis]

I still remember this original post. Its such a great insight. I wish I could share this with every missionary who is struggling with lack of success. Its not you, its the product that stinks.

[Lostinmiddlemormonism2]

It seems like a long time since I typed those lines, yet very little has changed except more of the same from the the great and spacious building in Salt Lake.

-Lost

[Not Buying It]

Such a superb OP - well done!