Top three most troubling doctrines/issues

[Give It Time]

For me, these really are an unholy trinity. I can't rank them, because they all tie in together. To borrow Alas's phrase:

Eternal families-my father's entire line is non-LDS. Much of my mother's line, as well. My favorite aunt won't be in the CK, my best friend won't be there. Without them, it'll be stinking boring, because they really liven up a place. My parents won't be married. My father won't be there. My mother will probably choose not to be married which would have her sacrificing exaltation and, thus, family. I have a sibling or two they if I see very little of them, that's just fine. I know there are a lot of toxic families and the doctrine of eternal family just isn't a big selling point to some people.

The crappy way they treat women-another good turn out phrase by Alas. From inequality to polygamy (again, eternal family). Just too all encompassing. It's in the very warp and weft of the doctrines. Impossible to excise and have the church be the same...which might be good.

The aggressive culture -- Have you ever noticed how aggressive this church is? Respecting boundaries is one of the most interpersonal behaviors there are. Being able to set healthy boundaries is one of the most important adult skills there are. This church crashes through and obliterates boundaries. There are many people who say they could be a cultural Mormon. This aggressive culture is the reason why I will end up not even being a cultural Mormon. It is part of my heritage, but I choose not to belong to this aggressive disrespectful culture.

[Ghost]

It's interesting to try to distill everything into a top three list. These are probably mine:

1. Unlikeliness that there's an afterlife, which seems to make things a whole lot less meaningful. (This is an oversimplification, but a deeper dive only becomes more problematic.)
2. Problem of evil, which can be expanded to finding a reliable definition of God in general that's not just made up to fit one's current values.
3. Lack of a reason to believe the supernatural claims of the Bible, which undermines all of the uniquely Mormon beliefs.

[MerrieMiss]

I'd love to answer the question, but I'm not sure I know what doctrine is. Can someone please explain????

Doctrinally, these were the top problems for me when I fell into my faith crisis:

• Eternal families/sealings - I was preparing a sharing time for primary and went down this rabbit hole. It made no sense and everywhere I went it seemed that no one knew anything, it was all opinion and people made it up as they went along (true about so many things, but that's another issue altogether)

• Book of Abraham

• My divine nature and individual worth as a woman - I realized that I didn't matter in God's plan, except to make babies. And serve men. Very depressing.

• Can I add a fourth? It isn't really a fourth because it can't be separated from everything else: the church's dishonesty and lack of integrity.

When it came down to it though, what I really had to ask myself, and this is more of an issue than a doctrinal thing: Does the church make me happy? Answer: No. The church never made me happy. I believed it was true and something I had to suffer through. If it wasn't true and it didn't make me happy, then it was of no use to me. When I realized if I were fifteen years younger that I'd walk away, this is when I came to the acceptance stage. All the other stuff was extra.

[Silver Girl]

My top three:

1. Lying to members, investigators and everyone else. About everything.
2. It was founded by a con-artist sexual predator, and they lied about it.
3. The entire organization exists to generate money and adulation to mortal men. And they lie about it.

Did i mention lying?

[Corsair]

1. Polyandry and Polygamy
2. Translation and historicity issues with BoM and BoA
3. The profound unreliability of the spirit in discerning truth

There are endless apologetics about the first two items that had a chance to work for me at one time. But item three deal ends all possibility of letting any of the issues ever really get fixed for me. I can feel "the spirit" doing lots of things and many of them are not supposed to be conducive to the spirit.

[ulmite]

1. What validity can I give my own spiritual experiences, given all the messed up stuff which has sometimes come from "revelation"?

[2.] The crappy way they treat women.
3. The crappy way they treat LGTB.

[Anon70]

Wow what a painful post for me. I thought it was going to be easy for me to list then as I read everyone's posts I realized I couldn't pick just three. There are too many top issues!

[20/20hind]

Here are mine (at the moment):

• Prayer doesn't work and is not a reliable way of determining truth;

• The institutional Church holds its members to a level of honesty it doesn't follow itself;

• Too many of the actions of Church leaders have been morally indefensible.

I like it

[Mormorrisey]

This is a fun game - it's almost like a Rorschach test, I think it says more about us, the things that concern us about the church, than the church itself! But I'll play along, because it's a great question.

1) The increasing corporatization of the church. For me, this was the number one shelf item. Building malls, luxury apartments and a large corporate bureaucracy to "grow" the corporation. Yep, my reading of the New Testament, that's what Jesus would be all about. This is when the alarm bells started to go off.

2) Prophets can never lead us astray. I think rather false doctrine has caused all the historical and current problems in the church, that they can't err in practice or in doctrine. And they never apologize or admit that there even is a problem.

3) All is well in Zion. That nothing in the church needs to change, and it's an outgrowth of doctrine #2; prophets are in charge, so the church is fine. That means they'll take forever to address women's issues, LGBT issues, etc. etc., until society has moved WAY past them, and they are forced to adress these issues.

It might have been a little too general of an answer, but that's my big three.

[hmb]

You all are a bunch of whiners and liars. Everyone knows that you are just looking for ways to be offended so you can sin. Sinning is fun and addicting. All you guys out there just want functioning factories to operate in whatever way pleases you. You need an excuse to hang on to that extra 10%, and hunger for the extra weekend day to do as you please. This isn't the church's problem. On your knees brethren and sistren. Your millstones must be feeling pretty heavy.

[Stig]

You all are a bunch of whiners and liars. Everyone knows that you are just looking for ways to be offended so you can sin. Sinning is fun and addicting. All you guys out there just want functioning factories to operate in whatever way pleases you. You need an excuse to hang on to that extra 10%, and hunger for the extra weekend day to do as you please. This isn't the church's problem. On your knees brethren and sistren. Your millstones must be feeling pretty heavy.

You win the thread.

[Red Ryder]

Hmb is right.

My top three:

1. Desire to watch R rated movies.
2. Desire to drink coffee, tea, and alcohol.
4. Desire to look at (.)(.)
5. Desire to avoid total mind numbing boringness.

[SunbeltRed]

1) Epistemology (I didn't know what to call this for a long time) - as Corsair said: The profound unreliability of the spirit in discerning truth. I could not ever tell the difference of when the Holy Spook was around or not around.

2) Blacks and the Priesthood: Just never felt right and then when the essay came out, that put a lot of weight on the shelf. I was also obsessed with the Civil Right movement and have read quite extensively about it. MLK and the other religious leaders of the time seemed like they were more prophets than anything the Mormon church had to offer.

3) The idea that I as a father had more love and mercy in my heart than G-d seemed to have. I would not reject my children and punish them for eternity for simply not bowing down and worshiping the ground I walk on and do exactly what I say all the time.

[alas]

For me, these really are an unholy trinity. I can't rank them, because they all tie in together. To borrow Alas's phrase:

Eternal families-my father's entire line is non-LDS. Much of my mother's line, as well. My favorite aunt won't be in the CK, my best friend won't be there. Without them, it'll be stinking boring, because they really liven up a place. My parents won't be married. My father won't be there. My mother will probably choose not to be married which would have her sacrificing exaltation and, thus, family. I have a sibling or two they if I see very little of them, that's just fine. I know there are a lot of toxic families and the doctrine of eternal family just isn't a big selling point to some people.

The crappy way they treat women-another good turn out phrase by Alas. From inequality to polygamy (again, eternal family). Just too all encompassing. It's in the very warp and weft of the doctrines. Impossible to excise and have the church be the same...which might be good.

The aggressive culture -- Have you ever noticed how aggressive this church is? Respecting boundaries is one of the most interpersonal behaviors there are. Being able to set healthy boundaries is one of the most important adult skills there are. This church crashes through and obliterates boundaries. There are many people who say they could be a cultural Mormon. This aggressive culture is the reason why I will end up not even being a cultural Mormon. It is part of my heritage, but I choose not to belong to this aggressive disrespectful culture.

We discuss all the time about the church's boundary issues, but I have never applied the word "aggressive" to the church's boundary violations. I mentioned the idea to my progressive but still TBM husband and it started a good discussion. When we were in the marriage stage of babies and pregnancies we were both put in leadership positions and after several years of various leadership, we hit burn out and developed some firm boundaries with the church. It started with me being primary president and that wasn't bad, but then I was RSP prez, then him 1st counselor in b-ric, then him as scout master. We just could not keep our sanity in that kind of time consuming calling with small children. But past that point, we started saying "no" to the big callings. We simply did not let the home teachers in at the children's bed time, or during supper if they showed up with no appointment. We started skipping church once in a while just to enjoy family time. But with all of that boundary reinforcement to protect ourselves, I never connected that the church is downright aggressive. It doesn't just violate boundaries out of lack of consideration, but it purposely puts the church's needs ahead of everything else. It trains its members to have no boundaries as far as it is concerned. When people want to cut back or drop out, is aggressive enough in its retention efforts as to be more than a little annoying. It trains missionaries to be aggressive in spreading the gospel, and that aggressiveness becomes part of the culture.

We talked about how the church works for extroverts, but this aggressive culture is too intrusive and makes introverts very uncomfortable. So, not only does it demand extroverted behavior from people who are really uncomfortable with it, but when the introvert tries to pull back because they are overwhelmed, there is the church aggressively shoving itself into their faces.

[Vlad the Emailer]

1. Changing the BoM story. Sorry, no one gets to change the over all point of the saga (Native Americans exist because Lamanites existed) and get away with it, especially not "God's one true and everlasting church".

2. Institutional hypocrisy. Consistently warning members to never look at their faith or beliefs in an objective or quizzical light (at all, let alone with the idea that something better or with more truth might be out there) while sending out an army of volunteers whose very purpose is to convince others to do exactly that.

3. Tithing. The fact that there even is something called tithing settlement absolutely screams that this is anything but the church of Jesus Christ. As someone pointed out above, the Mormon obsession with getting your money is the very opposite of what Jesus Christ taught.

[Give It Time]

For me, these really are an unholy trinity. I can't rank them, because they all tie in together. To borrow Alas's phrase:

Eternal families-my father's entire line is non-LDS. Much of my mother's line, as well. My favorite aunt won't be in the CK, my best friend won't be there. Without them, it'll be stinking boring, because they really liven up a place. My parents won't be married. My father won't be there. My mother will probably choose not to be married which would have her sacrificing exaltation and, thus, family. I have a sibling or two they if I see very little of them, that's just fine. I know there are a lot of toxic families and the doctrine of eternal family just isn't a big selling point to some people.

The crappy way they treat women-another good turn out phrase by Alas. From inequality to polygamy (again, eternal family). Just too all encompassing. It's in the very warp and weft of the doctrines. Impossible to excise and have the church be the same...which might be good.

The aggressive culture -- Have you ever noticed how aggressive this church is? Respecting boundaries is one of the most interpersonal behaviors there are. Being able to set healthy boundaries is one of the most important adult skills there are. This church crashes through and obliterates boundaries. There are many people who say they could be a cultural Mormon. This aggressive culture is the reason why I will end up not even being a cultural Mormon. It is part of my heritage, but I choose not to belong to this aggressive disrespectful culture.

We discuss all the time about the church's boundary issues, but I have never applied the word "aggressive" to the church's boundary violations. I mentioned the idea to my progressive but still TBM husband and it started a good discussion. When we were in the marriage stage of babies and pregnancies we were both put in leadership positions and after several years of various leadership, we hit burn out and developed some firm boundaries with the church. It started with me being primary president and that wasn't bad, but then I was RSP prez, then him 1st counselor in b-ric, then him as scout master. We just could not keep our sanity in that kind of time consuming calling with small children. But past that point, we started saying "no" to the big callings. We simply did not let the home teachers in at the children's bed time, or during supper if they showed up with no appointment. We started skipping church once in a while just to enjoy family time. But with all of that boundary reinforcement to protect ourselves, I never connected that the church is downright aggressive. It doesn't just violate boundaries out of lack of consideration, but it purposely puts the church's needs ahead of everything else. It trains its members to have no boundaries as far as it is concerned. When people want to cut back or drop out, is aggressive enough in its retention efforts as to be more than a little annoying. It trains missionaries to be aggressive in spreading the gospel, and that aggressiveness becomes part of the culture.

We talked about how the church works for extroverts, but this aggressive culture is too intrusive and makes introverts very uncomfortable. So, not only does it demand extroverted behavior from people who are really uncomfortable with it, but when the introvert tries to pull back because they are overwhelmed, there is the church aggressively shoving itself into their faces.

Exactly. And you can't say no. You can't say no to home teaching or visiting teaching. You can't say no to callings. You have to let the church trample all over you as a faithful member and, if you start to pull away, they hunt you down. It's in the handbook, it's in the lesson manuals, it's in the talks, it's in the scriptures.

I think the doctrine of the eternal family and absolute truth claims are, really, the reasons most of us are here, despite our particular issues. If our disaffection didn't threaten the integrity of the eternal family unit, our families wouldn't have as much of a problem seeking a path that resonated with us more. They'd want us to be happy. I think the reason we stay here, after we've worked through our issues and unpacked those bags is dealing with the institutional aggression.

Anyway, I am absolutely opposed to aggression and it is the reason I'll be saying #notmychurch.

[LSOF]

THIRD --- That the Mormon church behaves more like a business than a church.

SECOND --- The utter failure of "inspiration" to work any better than guessing, which stems from...

FIRST --- The failure of faith as an epistemology.

[Corsair]

Hmb is right.

My top three:

1. Desire to watch R rated movies.
2. Desire to drink coffee, tea, and alcohol.
4. Desire to look at (.)(.)
5. Desire to avoid total mind numbing boringness.

Your interest in (.)(.) has affected your ability to make a numbered list without skipping numbers. Besides, I'm pretty sure it is spelled (.Y.)

But maybe that's just with an underwire.

[Red Ryder]

I think this is more accurate in the current state of affairs.
(L.Y.V)

[MalcolmVillager]

Great topic. But just 3?!!!!

Okay, here goes.

1- Joseph's translation powers. This includes BOM, BofA, Moses, D&C, temple ceremonies (don't get me started), Kinderhook plates, etc... The "caractors" document is as close to a smoking gun as I have seen. The BofA is pretty much the same for me.
2- One true church authority. This includes PH restoration, all visions and visitations, exclusionary attitudes/policies, racism, sexism, superiority claims, Joseph ushering in the millennium, Joseph judging all saints in heaven.
3- Modern Mormonism control. This includes everything that restricts the freedom of members to make adult decisions about underwear, dress, grooming, diet, family members, marriage, sexual relations, politics, media consumption, Sunday activities, and just about everything else. Need I go on?!

This was pretty painful to write. So nuts!