Elder Gong: “Please don’t post that photo…”

[alas]

Those of us with transgender children have cause to worry. Last year was the worst year in history for violence against transgender people. And good luck finding a real career in a place like Utah. As a TMB I never thought I'd say such a thing, but I sometimes wish I had a gay child, because they would safer and more accepted in this environment. As it is, I have a transgender daughter who is the sweetest, kindest, most loving and intelligent person I know, but I have to worry that some dumbass MAGA Mormon might take it upon himself to represent his religion at her expense.

Up thread people were talking about backlash from moving too fast, well the increase in violence against transgender folk is one example. Well, I am not even going to call it “moving too fast,” but changing laws without changing hearts. And it is always the most vulnerable who are targeted. Just legislating laws doesn’t work unless we also work to change hearts.

Changing hearts can’t be forced but it can be encouraged. And it doesn’t have to be such a slow process. What if someone had the guts 50 years ago to have that Sit Com where the fat white guy is in love with the beautiful black girl? No, 50 years ago blacks were bit characters if they were blackface and there were zero fat guys allowed. Maybe Hollywood could have been bribed into getting racial representation on TV. Instead, we are just barely getting to having TV shows where the black characters are not stereotypes and are positive likable humans.

But we have discussed in the past how the church doesn’t want sexually active gays to even show up at church, or even their children to attend. Why? Because getting to know a real person who is gay would make gay people into “us” instead of “them”.

You can’t change hearts be arguing or fighting with the hater. And you can’t legislate it. It doesn’t work. They don’t change their minds. What does change minds and hearts? With my husband it was actually seeing that love is love and it makes no difference if the person loves someone of the opposite gender or same gender. But even with my 3 college degrees in psychology and social work, I couldn’t argue my husband into accepting our daughter’s wife. He had to get to know them as a couple and see that they love each other with the same commitment as he has to me. With my sister in law, it was realizing that her choice was to accept it or lose her daughter. That the daughter could not be forced into being straight. And the benefit of another grand baby. I think it was the grand baby. Grand babies are very influential. But that broke the ice and then she saw that her daughter was happy with her wife in a way she was not happy at Mormon church. But it took time!

And the bad thing is, that if you hit the backlash point, then people resist change even more.

And I don’t even know how I feel about transgender athletes. It REALLY isn’t fair to cisgender female athletes to have to compete against transgender athletes who grew lots of muscle while growing up male. But then what is fair to the transgender athletes???

[alas]

Being transgender has got to be rough in many ways. The idea that someone would just choose to be trans is patently nonsense if anyone bothers to learn about trans people, their lives, and their experiences. The claim that someone would go through all of that just to go in a bathroom or win a sports competition makes no sense. As my wife puts it, what man would willingly deal with all the discrimination and issues women face, without serious motivation.

We have an extended teen family member who came out as trans within the past year. One of the things I've learned over and over again from LGBT people is that coming out isn't a single, one-time event. Their mother shared with us about it last June, but confided in us that this teen was concerned about other extended family members knowing because of what they might say and do. We had this family over for Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners, but didn't invite any other extended family because 1), it's a pandemic and we're trying to limit contact, and 2) we wanted to provide them a safe space to be who they are. I get the impression that they've been pretty well accepted at school and by friends. (They live in Colorado, not Utah, which could be a big difference.) I understand that their mental health has dramatically improved since coming out to parents.

My daughter has many trans friends. They seem to be managing pretty well and getting by, certainly better once they acknowledged who they are. It makes a huge difference when they have family who accepts and supports them.

Best wishes to your child, Hagoth, on being able to live to an authentic life. It's great that they've been able to find a loving partner and have loving, supporting parents. That makes a huge difference.

While getting my master’s degree we had a class, and I can’t even remember which class, but we saw a “before” and “after” film. Started out with his dude talking and he was creepy and most of the class couldn’t figure out why they thought the guy was creepy. Then I said “effeminate.” And the professor just quietly ran the “before” film again and I studied him closer. His voice, while low and masculine, ended sentences with an upswing, making statements into questions. *like women do* and his hand and facial gestures were feminine, and his face was feminine….except for the goatee. Then the professor ran the “after” film. OH! After the “guy” transitioned into a “gal” and it was only six months later and suddenly “transsexual” (what “transgender” was called back then) made sense.

So, no, they don’t choose it. They really are females stuck in a male body or males stuck in a female body.

[Jeffret]

Up thread people were talking about backlash from moving too fast, well the increase in violence against transgender folk is one example.

Sounds like victim blaming.

[Hagoth]

But we have discussed in the past how the church doesn’t want sexually active gays to even show up at church, or even their children to attend. Why? Because getting to know a real person who is gay would make gay people into “us” instead of “them”.

Yup, that's the nail on the head. Boyd K. Packer would call it he tolerance trap. Once you realize they're not the perverts and monsters you were taught to fear you will find it easy to tolerate them. And that is the gateway drug to liking, or even loving some of them, just like you do the other people in your neighborhood who don't have a target painted on their foreheads. And then you might realize that your religious leaders have just been spouting plain old fashioned bigotry in the pretense of divine inspiration.

[Cnsl1]

Liking.. the gateway emotion to love.

Inclusion, the dangerous behavior that leads to tolerance, which leads to acceptance and liking.

Better to keep them in the outgroups so we can perceive them as homogenous and pat our own backs while we profess our philos to all those poor folks cursed with those temptations.

Heheh

[alas]

Up thread people were talking about backlash from moving too fast, well the increase in violence against transgender folk is one example.

Sounds like victim blaming.

No, saying the victims deserve it or cause it is victim blaming. Those who are choosing violence as a response to something they don’t like are 100% responsible. There is saying that girls who have been drinking are more likely to be sexually assaulted is talking about risk, not victim blaming. It is a totally different question to ask how to stop the backlash. Obama being elected President caused a racial backlash of an increase racial tension among bigots. Saying that isn’t saying the bigots are right or saying they are not racist bigots. It is just seeing a fact in what increases the risk of racial violence.

I worked as a rape crises counselor and part of my job was to teach what increases risk, the other part was after the fact convincing the victims that what they did didn’t cause them to be raped. Nothing the woman does cause rape. But there are things that can increase risk. Mother’s who are incapacitated in some way have an creased risk of having their child sexually abused by their husband. But the mother being incapacitated doesn’t cause the sexual abuse. Only the abuser causes the abuse.

So, demanding that they be treated as human beings increases the risk of transsexuals being targeted. But the person who commits the violence is 100% responsible.

Demanding to be treated as humans is still probably better than living life hiding in the closet, even if it increases the risk. Electing Obama was 100% worth ticking of the racist pigs of the world. Sometimes improving the world causes it to get worse before it gets better. That is reality.

[stealthbishop]

POV:

Full disclosure, I am a straight cis male. LGBTQIA+ people of course should have a platform for speaking for themselves and I seek to uplift their voices. Having said all that, IMO the LDS church is likely going to be very toxic for someone with these naturally occurring differences. It is not just a "lifestyle" just like me being married to a straight cis woman is not a "lifestyle". I didn't choose my gender identity and orientation. These were natural aspects of who I am and have been from a very young age. These are biological aspects and differences in human beings (and other species).

The fact of the matter is that the LDS church will continue to be a harmful environment for the vast majority of LGBTQIA+ people. Parents and family members should get educated and take action before the harm does serious damage to their family members. Unfortunately the Gongs are trapped in the system where I imagine they have to choose the church over their child. It's a sad situation. And unfortunately too many of the senior leadership of the LDS church have painted themselves into a corner on this issue. Helpful reforms will not be coming until all the leaders who have painted themselves into a corner have died off (at a minimum, Nelson and Oaks, and now Holland). Don't hold your breath IOW.

(I think that in some ways this may have been one of Matt's main messages. If you are a junior apostle (basically anyone who isn't President of the Church), you literally have no power to do much of anything IF the President is in good health).

NOTE TO THE COB:

THIS ISSUE WILL NEVER EVER GO AWAY and IT WILL GET WORSE AND WORSE.

[Hagoth]

NOTE TO THE COB:

THIS ISSUE WILL NEVER EVER GO AWAY and IT WILL GET WORSE AND WORSE.

And when they do finally deal with it, half of the membership will feel betrayed because they had been reinforced in believing that their bigotry was actually loyalty to their God & Prophet. The other half will feel betrayed because they had been indoctrinated to believe that their empathy for certain Lost Sheep was a temptation trying to drag them into the tolerance trap. Actually, it won't be half and half, because another several percent will suddenly burst from their closets.

[Angel]

NOTE TO THE COB:

THIS ISSUE WILL NEVER EVER GO AWAY and IT WILL GET WORSE AND WORSE.

And when they do finally deal with it, half of the membership will feel betrayed because they had been reinforced in believing that their bigotry was actually loyalty to their God & Prophet. The other half will feel betrayed because they had been indoctrinated to believe that their empathy for certain Lost Sheep was a temptation trying to drag them into the tolerance trap. Actually, it won't be half and half, because another several percent will suddenly burst from their closets.

It will not be a revelation - it will be more "policy" changes. Church ran by lawyers and policies and protests - president, not prophet... will everyone be free of it then?

[Hagoth]

It will not be a revelation - it will be more "policy" changes. Church ran by lawyers and policies and protests - president, not prophet... will everyone be free of it then?

Maybe it the Proclamation to the World will be quietly updated in the middle of the night with no announcement at all, like the Handbook was when the lawyers delivered the exclusion revelation to the prophet.