Any advice for those contemplating divorce?

[Red Ryder]

Stuck,

Here’s the answer to your garment issue:

Show your wife the Q&A from Fair.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/an ... gamists%3F

Question: Did Joseph and others with him remove their garments in order to avoid being identified as polygamists?

John Taylor, who was an eyewitness to the martyrdom, clarified that the garments were not removed out of fear, but that they were sometimes removed because of the hot weather.

You’re not removing your garments out of fear or disbelief, but simply because it’s hot. Just like the Prophet Joseph Smith himself!

[Advocate]

Thanks for your response Advocate! I think like you that one of the most important considerations is what it would do to my kids. Some would argue that leaving them in the church might screw them up. But I think if a couple can maintain a civil marriage where it would provide a stable environment for kids that would be best right?

Like you also, I don't like to be told what I can and cannot read or listen to, so that is a bother. But maybe this is one of those things where I can make a compromise with her like perhaps I can strike a balance such as one day listen to something that is not antagonistic to the church or Christianity.

Also I think it might be difficult for me to give up drinking coffee and not wearing my garment top at work (it gets so hot with it on).

But like we tell our kids we can't always have what we want. So maybe I'll have to give up something to save the marriage.

There are lots of people in the church that are stable and great. There are lots of people out of the church that are stable and great. There are lots of people in the church that are unstable and unhealthy. There are lots of people out of the church that are unstable and unhealthy. I don't think the church has much to do with screwing people up majorly, and a parent that helps kids to think for themselves can avoid a lot of the minor damage that the church inflicts. It seems to me that divorce can lead to trust/commitment issues in kids throughout their lives, and short term bad decisions due to the upheaval and need for attention. Best to avoid that unless the relationship is so unhealthy that the effects of that unhealthiness would be worse.

To be clear, my wife doesn't listen to any of my podcasts (religious or otherwise) as she isn't interested. A compromise here isn't a bad idea.

Never been a coffee drinker, so I can't help you there. I love a cold diet coke every morning. Maybe you could switch?

We live in the Southeast United States, so I know all about hot and sticky summers. I'm lucky that I have an office job. It sounds like your work is more hands-on and outside. Maybe you could wear the garment top to and from work, only taking it off when you are outside as a compromise due to the hot weather. Or you could draw a line in the sand and tell her that it is your body and sweating to death in a garment top is unhealthy, and you aren't going to treat your body that way. If you decide to draw that line in the sand, be sure to show her extra love and attention on the days you don't wear your garment top. A lot of people in the church have the idea that if someone doesn't want to wear garments it could only be because they are looking to fornicate.

As I reflect more on what you've said, it sounds like you need to figure out by yourself what you're willing to do and not. If you tell your wife that you refuse to wear a garment top at work because you get dehydrated, overheated, and it is unhealthy, then she should accept it because it is your body you are affecting, not hers. If that is your line in the sand, then the choice of divorce is up to her. Is she willing to force a divorce because you refuse to wear a garment top when working outside? Is that the hill she is going to die on?

I hope you stay around on this forum. I've found lots of wisdom here when I am struggling, and it is a great place to vent and think things through.

Good luck! There is light at the end of your tunnel! We're all pulling for you!

[stuck]

Stuck,

Here’s the answer to your garment issue:

Show your wife the Q&A from Fair.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/an ... gamists%3F

Question: Did Joseph and others with him remove their garments in order to avoid being identified as polygamists?

John Taylor, who was an eyewitness to the martyrdom, clarified that the garments were not removed out of fear, but that they were sometimes removed because of the hot weather.

You’re not removing your garments out of fear or disbelief, but simply because it’s hot. Just like the Prophet Joseph Smith himself!

That's a great find Red Ryder! I will have to show her this, thanks!

[stuck]

Thanks for your response Advocate! I think like you that one of the most important considerations is what it would do to my kids. Some would argue that leaving them in the church might screw them up. But I think if a couple can maintain a civil marriage where it would provide a stable environment for kids that would be best right?

Like you also, I don't like to be told what I can and cannot read or listen to, so that is a bother. But maybe this is one of those things where I can make a compromise with her like perhaps I can strike a balance such as one day listen to something that is not antagonistic to the church or Christianity.

Also I think it might be difficult for me to give up drinking coffee and not wearing my garment top at work (it gets so hot with it on).

But like we tell our kids we can't always have what we want. So maybe I'll have to give up something to save the marriage.

There are lots of people in the church that are stable and great. There are lots of people out of the church that are stable and great. There are lots of people in the church that are unstable and unhealthy. There are lots of people out of the church that are unstable and unhealthy. I don't think the church has much to do with screwing people up majorly, and a parent that helps kids to think for themselves can avoid a lot of the minor damage that the church inflicts. It seems to me that divorce can lead to trust/commitment issues in kids throughout their lives, and short term bad decisions due to the upheaval and need for attention. Best to avoid that unless the relationship is so unhealthy that the effects of that unhealthiness would be worse.

To be clear, my wife doesn't listen to any of my podcasts (religious or otherwise) as she isn't interested. A compromise here isn't a bad idea.

Never been a coffee drinker, so I can't help you there. I love a cold diet coke every morning. Maybe you could switch?

We live in the Southeast United States, so I know all about hot and sticky summers. I'm lucky that I have an office job. It sounds like your work is more hands-on and outside. Maybe you could wear the garment top to and from work, only taking it off when you are outside as a compromise due to the hot weather. Or you could draw a line in the sand and tell her that it is your body and sweating to death in a garment top is unhealthy, and you aren't going to treat your body that way. If you decide to draw that line in the sand, be sure to show her extra love and attention on the days you don't wear your garment top. A lot of people in the church have the idea that if someone doesn't want to wear garments it could only be because they are looking to fornicate.

As I reflect more on what you've said, it sounds like you need to figure out by yourself what you're willing to do and not. If you tell your wife that you refuse to wear a garment top at work because you get dehydrated, overheated, and it is unhealthy, then she should accept it because it is your body you are affecting, not hers. If that is your line in the sand, then the choice of divorce is up to her. Is she willing to force a divorce because you refuse to wear a garment top when working outside? Is that the hill she is going to die on?

I hope you stay around on this forum. I've found lots of wisdom here when I am struggling, and it is a great place to vent and think things through.

Good luck! There is light at the end of your tunnel! We're all pulling for you!

Thanks for the response Advocate! I don't work outside though. And I used to drink caffeinated soda but found it wasn't good for my tummy or digestive tract. I do alot better on coffee--go figure! So, I guess I should show her what Red Ryder found if it comes to that and see if she will be ok with it. It would be great if the church could just make those changes in the near future so that it's not a big deal right?

[1smartdodog]

My mother in law gave me some sage advice many years ago. She said if she had spent as much time trying to change herself as she spent trying to change her husband she would be perfect.

That said i think you need to live an authentic life as much as possible. My wife knows exactly what i believe. Which is it was all made up. Our compromise is i don’t try to change her mind and she does not try to change mine.

Sure I wish she would take off her garments and enter my world more but not to the point that of divorce. Divorce is generally bad for two people who generally get along OK. Who is to say another partner would not have even more issues.

If you want to compromise then focus on what you can do not what they should do. You will gain more headway that way. It is much easier

I have been married 41 years. Some good years some not so good, but more good than bad. It was worth it I think.


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[Zeezrom]

I would never have chosen divorce myself but it was forced on me years ago. In hindsight the Church is such an insidious mind f***ing cult that you really need a complete enema to flush it out of your system. For me I don’t think I could have made as clean a break without divorce and living far away from TBM family members. And even then it still affects you deep inside it’s just a matter of degrees.

[Red Ryder]

Bumping for an update from Stuck.....

Any progress?

[stuck]

Bumping for an update from Stuck.....

Any progress?

Well I think like 1Smartdog, it's best if we don't try to change each other. So I drink coffee and listen to mormon stories and don't wear my garment top at work on the sly. It seems best if we don't talk or discuss it much. Maybe this isn't the best approach, but it seems to be working for now. I still attend church with the family and have a nursery calling so I don't have to go to priesthood. I think the hard thing will be in 3 years when it comes time for my son to get baptized what will I do. I have thought ok maybe I could baptize him but then let my dad confirm him? I don't really believe in the Holy Spook anymore. Any suggestions?

[Red Ryder]

Any suggestions?

I baptized all of my kids. They changed the rules on the confirmation to require a temple recommend a few months before my last kid was baptized. The bishop mentioned this to me but I already knew from reading about the change online. He asked what I wanted to do and suggested a quick temple recommend interview so I answered the questions. He asked that I “start” paying tithing again, no back pay etc. so the next Sunday I handed him a tithing envelope with money in it. I literally paid to play. I baptized and confirmed and then stopped paying again. He wasn't too happy it.

I had decided early on in my faith awakening that I’d play the game and not be the dad sitting on the side watching. They are my kids. I love them, provide for them, etc so god damnit I was going to participate in the Mormon milestones. I wasn’t going to allow some Joe shmo bishop or other dude have any form of spiritual influence on my kids through the laying on of hands and making up crap to say to them in the name of Jesus. That was my job! I used those moments to tell them how proud of a parent we were of them and ignored the common Mormon cliches.

That was the route I took. I know others who have sat out and their fathers do the baptism and confirmation. I 100% support this decision too. You have to do what’s best for your situation.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

In regards to the coffee and garments. Those can be tricky if she feels like you’ve been hiding something so silly and benign. I did the no garment thing to work, then pretended to change into workout clothes in the evening. It was not Good for my mental health to hide. I finally just stopped wearing them “because they are uncomfortable and don’t fit. I prayed about it and felt god didn’t care what underwear I wore.”

Be open and recognize that your decisions may hurt her feelings, but in the end it’s your body, mind, and mental health you have to manage and live with. “I’m sorry you hurt.... I do too” is a great place to start talking over these difficult things.

As I type this, I’m shaking my head at how silly this all is. That as grown adults we are disappointing our loved ones because of our underwear choice and in belief in the supernatural. It’s so stupid.

[stuck]

Any suggestions?

In regards to the coffee and garments. Those can be tricky if she feels like you’ve been hiding something so silly and benign. I did the no garment thing to work, then pretended to change into workout clothes in the evening. It was not Good for my mental health to hide. I finally just stopped wearing them “because they are uncomfortable and don’t fit. I prayed about it and felt god didn’t care what underwear I wore.”

Be open and recognize that your decisions may hurt her feelings, but in the end it’s your body, mind, and mental health you have to manage and live with. “I’m sorry you hurt.... I do too” is a great place to start talking over these difficult things.

As I type this, I’m shaking my head at how silly this all is. That as grown adults we are disappointing our loved ones because of our underwear choice and in belief in the supernatural. It’s so stupid.

Yes I agree that this is silly also and aggravating right!? You know you're in a cult when 99% of the population (outside of the Morridor) wouldn't have a problem with these things right? Anyhow, at our last heated discussion about this stuff, I told her that if our marriage is to survive I needed to have some compromise on these things. So I think she knows I want to do these things but isn't happy with it, which is why I still try to hide it from her. She does struggle with some anxiety and will be seeing a Dr. about it. Hopefully that will help.

[stuck]

Maybe we should start a new thread that starts with "you know you're in a cult when . . . " Kind of like the comic that does "you know you're a redneck if . . . "

[dogbite]

I think the hard thing will be in 3 years when it comes time for my son to get baptized what will I do. I have thought ok maybe I could baptize him but then let my dad confirm him? I don't really believe in the Holy Spook anymore. Any suggestions?

Start asking him about what he wants. Do you want to go to church? let him know that you hear his answers but that there are things we just do as a family (for now).

Start talking about his choices in church. So talks in primary--do they still do that? That consent matters. It's good to try things to learn but you can say no. Teach him the power of no--but you're still likely in the tantrum stage somewhat, so this may be premature. Anyway, it's about laying ground. That church is about him and his activity is about him.

This leads to asking if he wants to get baptized. That baptism is about him, not about Mom and Dad and just what they want. I had a mission companion that said no at 8, yes at 9. If baptism is about accountability, let him really be accountable. Let him know that you're not a strict believer. Maybe if you can't do the confirmation, that will put a stop to everything. If they say Dad isn't good enough, why do I want to be part of hurting him?

By the time my kids were heading into priesthood ordination, they simply didn't want to be ordained. So they weren't. Knowing they had the choice made all the difference.

On a related vein, will be getting wife on board with respecting some decisions increasing that ability.

[Tangent]

I think the hard thing will be in 3 years when it comes time for my son to get baptized what will I do. I have thought ok maybe I could baptize him but then let my dad confirm him? I don't really believe in the Holy Spook anymore. Any suggestions?

This one can be tricky. My 'apostate' BIL baptized his son recently but let Grandpa confirm since a temple recommend is needed for that now. For them it wasn't too traumatic because he's very open with his wife and kids about where he is. So for him church related conversations with the family have gotten past the super uncomfortable stage -- the stage i'm unfortunately still in. I'll be confronting this issue next year as one of my daughters will be turning 8. I should start discussions with my wife soon about how we may want to handle this so it's not really awkward when the time comes.

[Linked]

Coffee and Garments

For garments I just started buying replacement underwear and undershirts and put them in my rotation. My DW could plainly see it, and eventually I had enough that the garments ended up in a box in the closet.

I screwed up on coffee, see this thread. I started drinking coffee without telling her and she guessed what was going on and was very unhappy.

I think the hard thing will be in 3 years when it comes time for my son to get baptized what will I do. I have thought ok maybe I could baptize him but then let my dad confirm him? I don't really believe in the Holy Spook anymore. Any suggestions?

I baptized our oldest a couple years ago. We asked him who he wanted to do which parts of the baptism and of his own accord he picked his grandpa to do the confirmation and me to perform the baptism so we dodged the tough discussions that time. I've got another kid's baptism coming up next year, we will see what that brings. I could see myself paying to play like Red Ryder if my younger son asks me to confirm him because things are in a pretty good spot right now and there is no need to rock the boat.

The situation we are in here is really difficult. Stuck between 4 rocks and 5 hard places; your handle 'stuck' is apt. Good luck with it all!

[stuck]

I think the hard thing will be in 3 years when it comes time for my son to get baptized what will I do. I have thought ok maybe I could baptize him but then let my dad confirm him? I don't really believe in the Holy Spook anymore. Any suggestions?

Start asking him about what he wants. Do you want to go to church? let him know that you hear his answers but that there are things we just do as a family (for now).

Start talking about his choices in church. So talks in primary--do they still do that? That consent matters. It's good to try things to learn but you can say no. Teach him the power of no--but you're still likely in the tantrum stage somewhat, so this may be premature. Anyway, it's about laying ground. That church is about him and his activity is about him.

This leads to asking if he wants to get baptized. That baptism is about him, not about Mom and Dad and just what they want. I had a mission companion that said no at 8, yes at 9. If baptism is about accountability, let him really be accountable. Let him know that you're not a strict believer. Maybe if you can't do the confirmation, that will put a stop to everything. If they say Dad isn't good enough, why do I want to be part of hurting him?

By the time my kids were heading into priesthood ordination, they simply didn't want to be ordained. So they weren't. Knowing they had the choice made all the difference.

On a related vein, will be getting wife on board with respecting some decisions increasing that ability.

This is a great suggestion, Dogbite!

[stuck]

I think the hard thing will be in 3 years when it comes time for my son to get baptized what will I do. I have thought ok maybe I could baptize him but then let my dad confirm him? I don't really believe in the Holy Spook anymore. Any suggestions?

This one can be tricky. My 'apostate' BIL baptized his son recently but let Grandpa confirm since a temple recommend is needed for that now. For them it wasn't too traumatic because he's very open with his wife and kids about where he is. So for him church related conversations with the family have gotten past the super uncomfortable stage -- the stage i'm unfortunately still in. I'll be confronting this issue next year as one of my daughters will be turning 8. I should start discussions with my wife soon about how we may want to handle this so it's not really awkward when the time comes.

Good luck Tangent, hope it goes well.

[stuck]

Coffee and Garments

For garments I just started buying replacement underwear and undershirts and put them in my rotation. My DW could plainly see it, and eventually I had enough that the garments ended up in a box in the closet.

Is your wife ok with the garments now?

I screwed up on coffee, see this thread. I started drinking coffee without telling her and she guessed what was going on and was very unhappy.

Do you still drink coffee or did you have to quit?

The situation we are in here is really difficult. Stuck between 4 rocks and 5 hard places; your handle 'stuck' is apt. Good luck with it all!

Yes, I think I'm going to start a new thread like--now that we know Mormonism is a cult, how do we make the best of it?

[Linked]

Is your wife ok with the garments now?

Yeah, she hasn't pushed me to start wearing them again. I don't remember ever really talking about it. I'm sure she had some thoughts about it, but she is not one to talk about her feelings. It's just the way things are now, I don't wear garments.

Do you still drink coffee or did you have to quit?

I still drink coffee. She's asked that I not drink it at home, which I have agreed to. She has even been okay with me getting a cup when we are on a couple's weekend a couple times. She is trying really hard to accept me as I am which I appreciate. It's still frustrating that she has to try so hard though.

Yes, I think I'm going to start a new thread like--now that we know Mormonism is a cult, how do we make the best of it?

Sounds like a good thread!

[1smartdodog]

I hear it is expensive


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