This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
"Pluralistic ignorance is a situation in which a majority of group members privately reject a norm, but go along with it because they assume, incorrectly, that most others accept it. This is also described as "no one believes, but everyone thinks that everyone else believes". Pluralistic ignorance is a bias about a social group, held by the members of that social group."
Think polygamy.......
My contention is that if those who don't "believe" would simply speak up en masse, the false bias existing in the group would be broken.
But speaking up takes courage, which is something that has always been in short supply.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
Palerider wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 9:38 am
My contention is that if those who don't "believe" would simply speak up en masse, the false bias existing in the group would be broken.
Hagoth wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:51 am
The real paradox is that until a dissenting majority speaks up we can't know if there really is a dissenting majority.
And therein lies the "issue" with Pluralistic Ignorance: It's next-to-impossible to get the dissenting majority to actually speak up.
If you want proof of my above sentence, look up the Pluralistic Ignorance episode on the You Are Not So Smart podcast. Be warned that there is some very, very harsh history in this podcast; It can be very harsh/hard to listen to. Hint: Jim Jones recorded literally every meeting he had with his followers.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
Another example of pluralistic ignorance is the temple ceremony.
The whole thing is just silly and weird.
But we specifically make promises not to discuss it so there’s always going to be a silent majority who probably think it’s weird but obviously can’t talk about it.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
I remember believing while having massive doubts. The thing I would cling to was the "fact" that I would know all the answers in the next life. It didn't last, once I learned of the church hiding truths (sins by commission, followed by sins of omission). Until I struggled with those undeniable truths, I leaned on the next life. Funny though, because looking back, I never felt a desire to end up in the CK. A lower kingdom felt like a better fit, even though I was TBM.
hmb wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:25 am
Funny though, because looking back, I never felt a desire to end up in the CK. A lower kingdom felt like a better fit, even though I was TBM.
This is a very interesting thought. I hope you don't mind if I split it off into a separate topic, rather than go off rails here.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:55 pm
Another example of pluralistic ignorance is the temple ceremony.
The whole thing is just silly and weird.
But we specifically make promises not to discuss it so there’s always going to be a silent majority who probably think it’s weird but obviously can’t talk about it.
Yep.
And you have to think to yourself:
" Well.....my Mom and Dad, my Bishop, my good friends and neighbors, ward members.....they all think this is ok and "normal". So it must be ok."
The reality is they all think it's just as weird as you do but (they think) all THEIR friends and family thought it was normal..... it's just a spiraling stupidity.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
I have a deeply personal example of how pluralistic ignorance can affect a person. I know I've told this story before but this discussion brought it all back up for me.
I was one of those kids who was stupid enough to go to my bishop and stake president to confess teenage masturbation (gasp!). I went through a painful and deeply damaging repentance process, was told I might not be able to serve a mission because of my deviance, and at one point even seriously considered committing suicide for fear that I might not be able to hold my head up again or stay "within the Lord's bounds." Not once did my leaders offer any comfort or suggest to me that this was normal teenage behavior. I was allowed to believe my worst fears that I was a uniquely perverse and damaged kid. But I did set about repenting according to their rules and was able to refrain from Satan's manipulations from that point and throughout my mission. Oh yeah, they did finally decide to grant me that great honor after I demonstrated sufficient degrees of groveling and self-loathing. I had to wait an additional 4 months because I was also stupid enough to confess on my pre-mission mental health questionnaire that I had occasional thoughts of suicide. Finally the doctor wrote a note to my SP - I saw it - that said, "I think we should take into account the fact that Hagoth was being honest when he answered these questions," like that was something they weren't used to.
Then, about 3/4 of the way through my mission, one of the most important events in my life happened.
I found myself stuffed into a car with five other elders on a many-hours drive to a mission conference. We talked about everything under the sun from our pre-mission lives. At some point one brave soul mentioned his shame and struggle over masturbation. Everybody's eyes popped open. Suddenly everyone started confessing and reassuring this poor guy that he was not alone. WHAT? We had all been Satans playthings? It's normal? AND NOBODY TOLD ME? It was one of the happiest moments in my life, after all those years of torture, realizing that I might actually be normal. And here I was in a car full of other people experiencing the same joy and relief. I still have a deep love for those guys.
Of course, the smart kids know better than to confess. Some undoubtedly still get plenty of church-authored reasons to think they're damaged goods, but at least they don't have their stake president hammering that spike into their skull.
How much healthier would the church be if a prophet stood up in conference and said, "Brethren, everybody masturbates and looks at porn at some time in their lives, including the men up here on the stand. Hating yourself for it just makes it more likely that you'll do it again, so let's all stop acting like we're better than everybody else and just get on with our lives. Nameofjesuschristamen."
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:27 am
How much healthier would the church be if a prophet stood up in conference and said, "Brethren, everybody masturbates and looks at porn at some time in their lives, including the men up here on the stand. Hating yourself for it just makes it more likely that you'll do it again, so let's all stop acting like we're better than everybody else and just get on with our lives. Nameofjesuschristamen."
I know I've mentioned this before. That when my oldest son talked to me about the big M, I told him firstly that he should know that ALL men masturbate at some point in their lives. Even the prophet and the quorum of the 12. No exceptions.
He looked terribly relieved. To know that he was normal was a huge thing.
But really the 15 wouldn't have to even publicly announce that they too were human. All they would have to do is change the wording in their little rule book to represent the fact that all men (and many women) masturbate and that it is normative for human behavior.
They could still push the self-control agenda while being a little more charitable in the forgiveness area.
Nobody, including them, achieves self-mastery in a day and no one achieves it totally during this life. If the Q15 think they have (and this includes Robot Bednar) they only practice self deception.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
All of Mormonism falls under this concept.
Specifics int he church include:
1) 1:1 youth interviews with bishop
2) temple ceremony
3) church attendance- probably most would rather not attend if there wasn’t social pressure. Look what Covid has done.
4) Belief that Q15 are Prophets, seers and revelators.
5) Joseph Smith and his translation abilities.
I guess pluralistic ignorance is why people like John Dehlin and Bill Reel get booted so quickly as soon as they stop saying nice things about the church. You have to get the crowd to turn against the child who can't see the emperor's clothes before any of them have a chance to consider that he might be right.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
Palerider wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:24 pm
Even the prophet and the quorum of the 12. No exceptions.
I’ll bet there’s one or two exceptions. Bednar and Packer. Ok, just Bednar.
Kimball. He seemed completely confused about why anyone would be interested in that yucky stuff. Packer subdued his urges with self-flagellation.
I'm betting all three of these gentlemen took their turns. They may have overridden the urge early or whatnot, but I'm going with the statistics and human nature.
"There is but one straight course, and that is to seek truth and pursue it steadily."
"Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light."
Hagoth wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:27 am
It's normal? AND NOBODY TOLD ME? It was one of the happiest moments in my life, after all those years of torture, realizing that I might actually be normal. And here I was in a car full of other people experiencing the same joy and relief. I still have a deep love for those guys.
I think this is such a good example of the harm that is so commonly inflicted by the Church. All of my five kids have been out of the Church mentally and emotionally for several years now. My dear wife is wonderful, but is a snoopy soul. Beware of the child who scribbles down their thoughts to vent because snoopy souls are prone to discover such incriminating evidence. One of my children had written about their self loathing and frustration at looking at porn. Of course this put my wife into a minor emotional tail spin and she insisted I talk to my son because she just cant handle it and I think she sees that when it comes to something like this, she's ineffective. I talked to the child. On the one hand it was probably stressful and embarrassing for the kid. On the other, it gave me a chance to try to set the record straight - that this is normal and can be healthy. I think I even said it's the safest of safe sex.
Because we raised the kid in the Church, because they are surrounded by the masturbation-shaming culture of Utah Co, because I haven't done enough to counteract the self-slut shaming, this non-believing kid felt shame for perfectly normal behavior. I'm glad I had the chance to tell them almost everybody has done it. I assured them that those males who say they haven't are either lying or are the very small asexual minority. I told them I suspect a majority of the Mormon adult leaders they know have done it in the last year. I also explained that porn typically portrays fantasy, not reality, and that there are risks and harms associated with it, but that the harm is often magnified by religiosity and shame.
I did warn them of a specific danger though ... of writing down your private thoughts where snoopy souls might snoop.
