RFM (consigliere) interviews his stake pres. Counselor

[2bizE]

If you have not yet listened to the most recent episode of Mormonism Live! Bill Reel and RFM interview RFM’s second counselor in the SP and ask why RFM has not yet been Ex’d.It was a delight to listen to.
One thing the Nuanced 2SP said was he doesn’t like the culture in the church. I was wondering why he didn’t conclude that so much of church culture is built on fact that church leaders are not sufficiently humble to own their mistakes and tell the membership when they fail, make mistakes. This has created a culture where members have to always be seen as perfect and can’t openly express their doubts and lack of faith.
There was another comment I wanted to make, but am old and forgot.
What are your thoughts on this episode?
Link to YouTube, but also available on Podcasts:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hesP-opGHaU

[Palerider]

Looking forward to listening to this.

One thing I know. Culture and behavior grow out of doctrine and the policy established by leadership.

Joseph set the policy/culture early by vilifying anyone who disagreed with him and spoke up about it. They were immediately labeled as evil people who were most likely involved in sexual sin. No speaking evil (or even honest observation) of the Lord's anointed.

That church culture is alive and well today. If you want to be happy in the church.....keep your mouth shut.

[moksha]

What are your thoughts on this episode?

A link might help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hesP-opGHaU

[wtfluff]

One thing the Nuanced 2SP said was he doesn’t like the culture in the church

I used this same type of phrase a lot when I was a believer, and throughout my attempts to force myself to believe once I peeked behind the curtain.

Thing is: "Church Culture" doesn't exist without "The Church." In reality, they are one and the same. They cannot be separated.

[2bizE]

One thing the Nuanced 2SP said was he doesn’t like the culture in the church

I used this same type of phrase a lot when I was a believer, and throughout my attempts to force myself to believe once I peeked behind the curtain.

Thing is: "Church Culture" doesn't exist without "The Church." In reality, they are one and the same. They cannot be separated.

Fluff,
Do you think this horrible Utah church culture is the same in New Zealand or Europe?

[Red Ryder]

So what was the answer?

Why no discipline for public opposition?

[jfro18]

So what was the answer?

Why no discipline for public opposition?

SPOILER ALERT: (Seriously don't read if you want to listen to the podcast first) They decided that since RFM does not openly push for people to leave the church, they see no reason to discipline him.

[alas]

One thing the Nuanced 2SP said was he doesn’t like the culture in the church

I used this same type of phrase a lot when I was a believer, and throughout my attempts to force myself to believe once I peeked behind the curtain.

Thing is: "Church Culture" doesn't exist without "The Church." In reality, they are one and the same. They cannot be separated.

Fluff,
Do you think this horrible Utah church culture is the same in New Zealand or Europe?

I do think that parts of the culture are transferred to places like New Zealand and Europe. And the “gospel” itself is different outside of Utah. So, not only do Utah cultural things leak out, but their local culture changes the teachings and emphasis at church. My sister in law is a Kiwi, and she moved to Utah as an older teen and she said that the church teaches different things in Utah, as a matter of fact, she was quite confused by it. I read things from places like New Zealand, such as Kiwi Mormon and I wonder if she really grew up in the same church I did, not that the culture is so different, but what is taught and emphasized at church is different. On the other hand, there is a guy who comments on Wheat and Tarres and he goes on about the Trump worshipping Mormons in his ward. Where are they getting that except Utah culture? And even within the US, church teachings vary by the local culture; go to church in Hawaii if you don’t believe me, or Texas. Ya’ll notice that not only is church culture slightly different, but church doctrine is slightly different. Or try attending church in a farming community compared to big city. So, the interaction between culture and doctrine is complicated and you just can’t separate church doctrine from church culture. They influence each other in a back and forth way.

Now, I can say that I don’t like church culture, but then I don’t like much of the doctrine either.

[moksha]

You sense there have been attempts to import the Utah culture when the residents wrestle with the question of whether the boy or the white shirt is more important when passing the Sacrament.

[wtfluff]

One thing the Nuanced 2SP said was he doesn’t like the culture in the church

I used this same type of phrase a lot when I was a believer, and throughout my attempts to force myself to believe once I peeked behind the curtain.

Thing is: "Church Culture" doesn't exist without "The Church." In reality, they are one and the same. They cannot be separated.

Fluff,
Do you think this horrible Utah church culture is the same in New Zealand or Europe?

I've never lived in New Zealand or Europe, so I can't say. BUT... I have lived in South America long enough to know that "Church Culture" exists there, just like it does in the Morridor. Is it the same as "Utah Church Culture?" No. But again: "Church Culture" anywhere in the world would not exist without "The Church."

So yeah: I agree with Alas: "Church Culture" exists all over the world. It's not the same all over the world, but it does exist.

Also as The Esteemed Penguin mentioned: " The Uniform of the Priesthood™ " (White shirt and tie/1950's IBM business attire) is promoted all over the world, and it is definitely part of "Church Culture." So that part of LD$-Inc.'s Cultural Imperialism/"Church Culture" exists, all over the world.

[alas]

I used this same type of phrase a lot when I was a believer, and throughout my attempts to force myself to believe once I peeked behind the curtain.

Thing is: "Church Culture" doesn't exist without "The Church." In reality, they are one and the same. They cannot be separated.

Fluff,
Do you think this horrible Utah church culture is the same in New Zealand or Europe?

I've never lived in New Zealand or Europe, so I can't say. BUT... I have lived in South America long enough to know that "Church Culture" exists there, just like it does in the Morridor. Is it the same as "Utah Church Culture?" No. But again: "Church Culture" anywhere in the world would not exist without "The Church."

So yeah: I agree with Alas: "Church Culture" exists all over the world. It's not the same all over the world, but it does exist.

Also as The Esteemed Penguin mentioned: " The Uniform of the Priesthood™ " (White shirt and tie/1950's IBM business attire) is promoted all over the world, and it is definitely part of "Church Culture." So that part of LD$-Inc.'s Cultural Imperialism/"Church Culture" exists, all over the world.

The white shirt thing is part of what angers me. White shirts are cultural, not religious. But we have made them religious just like Catholic priests wore the style of whenever and adopted it for hundreds of years as “what religious people wore” and they STILL wear those same robes as 1500 or so years ago. Or like the Amish adopted early 1800s style of dress and living and chiseled it into concrete as their religion. For crying out loud, no buttons on clothing was because buttons didn’t exist. And black boring clothing, that was a style, not a *virtue.*

They try to do it to women too. When I was a kid, women wore earrings that hurt, because a lady didn’t put holes in her ears. “Only hookers and Catholics pierce their ears.” Yup, my father’s words when I wanted to get my ears pierced as a rebellious teen. Good Mormon girls stayed “modest” which meant 10-20 years behind the style of that God forsaken California. And gradually style prevailed. Then the style became multiple piercings. And the old Mormons went berserk about “multiple piercings” and ordered all the women to only have 1 ear piercing, and no other piercings. But that s style! Not virtue or even modesty. One huge jangly flashy earring in each ear is less modest that 10 small studs. But in the 1930 when the church’s old men were born, women wore 1 flashy earring on each ear. So that was what they saw their mothers wearing….so THAT must be virtuous.

And other countries have their own culture, their own styles. Africa has it own style of dress, music, and culture. They like color, and flamboyance, and drums. But if you join the Mormon church, you sing European style hymns, played on European instruments, wearing American business suits, all very prim and proper, just like as if you lived in Utah. Japan has its own style of dress and music, but at church, Japanese music is “wrong” and one must worship in the same “priesthood uniform” the same music, the same EVERYthing as in Utah. The Mormon church 100% does force its Utah culture church wide. In fact, you celebrate Utah holidays at church. I am surprised sometimes they don’t require English be the only acceptable language to worship in, sort of like Rome did with Latin for several hundred years.

So, imagine Mormons 400 years from now, still wearing white shirts and suits to pass the sacrament. But by then women hold the priesthood, but must also wear the uniform of the priesthood in order to officiate in any priesthood duty. Seems rather silly, but I look around at other religions that adopted the style of clothing about the time they started and just kept that as religious wear. Monks wear today what they wore 1500 years ago and it is kinda stupid.

[moksha]

So, imagine Mormons 400 years from now, still wearing white shirts and suits to pass the sacrament. But by then women hold the priesthood, but must also wear the uniform of the priesthood in order to officiate in any priesthood duty.

They would specify that women could only pass the communion sacrament with a white shirt, tie, and non-pastel skirts. All would be required to kneel when a General Authority appeared on the holoscreen. The words nuance, RFM, and free agency would all be scrubbed from the Mormon Dictionary (along with the word Mormon - which would create a time-space paradox, effectively removing Utah County from existence).

[wtfluff]

But by then women hold the priesthood, but must also wear the uniform of the priesthood in order to officiate in any priesthood duty.

Wouldn't the "Uniform of the Mormon Woman" be a white t-shirt worn under a sleeveless/strappy dress?

[alas]

But by then women hold the priesthood, but must also wear the uniform of the priesthood in order to officiate in any priesthood duty.

Wouldn't the "Uniform of the Mormon Woman" be a white t-shirt worn under a sleeveless/strappy dress?

🤮


I have always thought the garments, the bra, then the T-shirt, then the summer dress, was about two layers too many in the summer. Besides being hot, it looked tacky. So, I never once got a sleeveless or strappy dress.

[wtfluff]

But by then women hold the priesthood, but must also wear the uniform of the priesthood in order to officiate in any priesthood duty.

Wouldn't the "Uniform of the Mormon Woman" be a white t-shirt worn under a sleeveless/strappy dress?

🤮


I have always thought the garments, the bra, then the T-shirt, then the summer dress, was about two layers too many in the summer. Besides being hot, it looked tacky. So, I never once got a sleeveless or strappy dress.

My absolute favorite Mormon-Themed white t-shirt-look was when I witnessed a woman wearing a tube-top over a white t-shirt.

WHY!?!?!?

I had to laugh so that I wouldn't cry. (MORmONism does that to me too much.)

[alas]

Wouldn't the "Uniform of the Mormon Woman" be a white t-shirt worn under a sleeveless/strappy dress?

🤮


I have always thought the garments, the bra, then the T-shirt, then the summer dress, was about two layers too many in the summer. Besides being hot, it looked tacky. So, I never once got a sleeveless or strappy dress.

My absolute favorite Mormon-Themed white t-shirt-look was when I witnessed a woman wearing a tube-top over a white t-shirt.

WHY!?!?!?

I had to laugh so that I wouldn't cry. (MORmONism does that to me too much.)

Maybe the white T-shirt has a big stain in front.

Maybe the tube top is clingy and shows off her sexy figure.

Maybe her mother-in-law gave her the tube top, so out of politeness she is wearing it.

Most likely she is an idiot trying to stay stylish and still be “modest”. But I don’t get the kind of thinking that can think virtue signaling is modest. This kind of virtue signaling is a form of bragging about how righteous one is.

But to me, this kind of stuff is a symptom of the pressure Mormon women are under. They are expected to be “modest” and at the same time to be sexy enough to attract a mate. The marriage pressure is tremendous, so women compete to be sexy/modest. You see it most in BYU students. When we lived all over the world with the military, I could always pick out the women who had gone to BYU. They had fancier hair-dos, more make-up, more likely to have “body work” like tummy tuck after baby or breast enlargement, and yet they were more conservatively dressed, but dressed nicer in more expensive clothes and always just looked more dressed up.

Anyway, just another sick part of Utah culture.