faith transition dilemmas

[Tangent]

Hi all,

Haven't posted in a while, just want to vent a bit about my situation, one that I'm sure several of you have been in.

I have been very open with my DW the past year about my faith transition. It has been tough for her. She really is trying to accept it but it's not easy. It has also been tough for me. I am a total people pleaser and this sucks. I still attend church and have the appearance of a normal active member -- in fact I'm only out to my wife and one or two very close friends.

Therein lies part of the problem. No one else -- kids -- parents -- other relatives -- know about this. I don't think my DW wants to bring it up and I hate disappointing those around me. But a decision point is approaching -- my oldest child is getting married soon (in the temple of course). I don't have a TR, nor do I want one. But now I either just go ahead and get a TR, which will feel like a sham (and raise DW's eyebrows, after the discussions we've had). Or I put on my big-boy pants and don't get the TR, miss my child's wedding, and have a forced coming-out to everyone in a very open and humiliating way.

Sure feels like a no-win situation to me.

Sometimes life just sucks.

[Hagoth]

Hi all,

Haven't posted in a while, just want to vent a bit about my situation, one that I'm sure several of you have been in.

I have been very open with my DW the past year about my faith transition. It has been tough for her. She really is trying to accept it but it's not easy. It has also been tough for me. I am a total people pleaser and this sucks. I still attend church and have the appearance of a normal active member -- in fact I'm only out to my wife and one or two very close friends.

Therein lies part of the problem. No one else -- kids -- parents -- other relatives -- know about this. I don't think my DW wants to bring it up and I hate disappointing those around me. But a decision point is approaching -- my oldest child is getting married soon (in the temple of course). I don't have a TR, nor do I want one. But now I either just go ahead and get a TR, which will feel like a sham (and raise DW's eyebrows, after the discussions we've had). Or I put on my big-boy pants and don't get the TR, miss my child's wedding, and have a forced coming-out to everyone in a very open and humiliating way.

Sure feels like a no-win situation to me.

Sometimes life just sucks.

It's a sham either way. Get the TR if it makes your life easier.

[Tangent]

Thanks Hagoth.

There's definitely the pragmatic angle. But i feel like I'm choosing between self respect and the respect of others. I want both in a situation where i can't have both

[Tangent]

Let me also just add -- i don't think I can really get through the first 4 TR questions. At least without absurd amounts of nuance and equivocation.

[alas]

As far as explaining getting the temple recommend to your wife, you simply tell her that since you don’t believe the church is true, and you do believe that keeping you out of your own child’s wedding is morally corrupt, that you will do what you have to in order to be their for your child. Tell her you are trying to minimize hating the church, and missing out on the wedding will certainly not help in the “hating the church” department.

As far as answering the questions, you can admit to struggling with *those* questions. Or you can nuance them, or out right lie. The church nuanced its history to get you to believe, so why be more honest with it than it has been with you?

You are in a no win situation and the church is the guilty party because it puts its own selfish desires to force tithing payment by keeping family away from a wedding unless they pay up. I think this is immoral on the part of the church. What the hell right do they have to prevent parents from attending a wedding. And we noticed that with the rich and famous, (a Romney) when there is likely to be bad publicity, they change their rules.

So, decide what you most want to do, and then figure out what you are willing to say to those you have to deal with.

Me, I have missed several family weddings. Because I would rather puke than be in the temple.

But f you want to be there, then do it.

[moksha]

I thought the Church just recently went through a transition where civil marriages were to be performed before any Temple ceremonies. Did I hallucinate over that part?





"Mom! Dad says he doesn't want to participate in our cult rituals, doesn't he love us anymore?"
"It's okay honey, once Dad realizes he will still have to go through the ritual of discommendation with the pain sticks, he might change his mind."

[jfro18]

I'd lie and get the recommend. You don't believe so there's no point in worrying about nuancing it - just get the TR, see the wedding, and then once that's over you can gameplan how or if you want to let your family know about your beliefs.

As much as I fear the possibility of this someday, I think if I had a chance at a TR (I am inactive so I don't think that would happen if I wanted one) I would get it to be there just because of the stress of not being there... but man that's such a sucky position that the church puts families in.

[wtfluff]

I thought the Church just recently went through a transition where civil marriages were to be performed before any Temple ceremonies. Did I hallucinate over that part?

Nope, you didn't hallucinate that part Dear Penguin.

Unfortunately, lots of kids still feel the need to exclude their friends and relatives from their "wedding." (I find it hard to type the word wedding to describe a creepy, short, culty, polygamist "ceremony.")

[Reuben]

You won't know whether you have to choose between self-respect and others' respect until you come out to the child who is getting married.

It sounds like if you put off that conversation, you will be forced to choose.

FWIW, the possibility of being excluded from my children's weddings because I can't believe the church's arrogant, self-serving, obviously BS fables is in the top 3 reasons I can't stand it. It needs to change or go down in flames. I would much rather see change.

Recently, my oldest daughter decided that there is no way I'll be excluded from her upcoming wedding. It might go the same way for you.

[blazerb]

Whichever way you choose, it will feel bad, but those feelings only last for a little while. My suggestion is that the memories of being there for your child will long outlast the bad feelings. However, only you can know what is right for you.

[Red Ryder]

I agree with Hagoth. It’s all a sham so get the TR and enjoy the day with your kid.

Your integrity isn’t in question here.

The church’s integrity is in question.

When it comes to ordinances for my kids, I’ve taken the approach that I’ll reciprocate the honesty the church has shown.

So half truths, whitewashing narratives, and carefully worded denials are how I answered the TR questions when I needed one.

As for your wife, you can tell her you prayed about it and felt the answer was to support your family.

It’s that simple.

You’re a good person Tangent and this shouldn’t change any of that. You raised your kids and deserve to see them married. Even if it’s not in the most ideal time and place. You still deserve to witness it first hand.

[Linked]

Sure feels like a no-win situation to me.

Sometimes life just sucks.

This sums it up. You are in an impossible situation with no good options. Many of us here are in similar spots.

The church has not earned the right to deny you from attending your child's wedding. The church is misguided at best and shockingly evil at worst, but wherever they land on that spectrum they should not be the ones determining if you get to support your child on their special day. Their special underwear doesn't deserve a ceremony to throw away, their special rules don't deserve to be followed, and their special buildings do not deserve a second thought about entering.

[wtfluff]

Let me also just add -- i don't think I can really get through the first 4 TR questions. At least without absurd amounts of nuance and equivocation.

LD$-Inc. is ALL ABOUT Nuance and Equivocation

Just for fun, why don't we "practice" the first four questions in this thread? I'm sure we can get some good ideas from the NOMmies.

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?
Answer: Yes.
(Personally, in my mind, I "might" be thinking: I faithfully testify that Elohim, Jehova and the Holy Spook are just as real as Allah, Brahma, and Zeus. This is my testimony.)

2. Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer?
Answer: Yes.
(I'm thinking: Like the previous question: I testify that Jesus is just as real as all of the other "Saviours and Redeemers" humans have invented. Osiris is likely one of my other favorites!)

3. Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Answer: Yes.
(Oh boy, here we go again: I faithfully testify that "The Resoration" is a load of lies, and made-up half-truths. This is my testimony.)

4. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?
Answer: Yes.

Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?
Answer: Yes.

Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?
Answer: Yes.
(What was it that Gordon Hinckley said on national television when an interviewer asked him if he was a prophet? "I am called as such" or something like that, wasn't it? That's a perfectly honest answer to every one of those questions: "They are called as such" or "I sustain those corporate titles" Yeah, I probably wouldn't say that last one out loud.)



While we're at it, let's answer the only question that really matters here:
15. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?
Answer: Yes.

The vast, vast majority of parents who have lived on this planet are "worthy" to see their kids get married. Full Stop.

I testify that you are worthy to see your child get married, Tangent. Don't let a giant real-estate corporation that masquerades as a church get in the way of making your child's day wonderful, with you included.

[Red Ryder]

Hey Fluff...

You skipped the underwear question.

[MoPag]

Let me also just add -- i don't think I can really get through the first 4 TR questions. At least without absurd amounts of nuance and equivocation.

LD$-Inc. is ALL ABOUT Nuance and Equivocation

Just for fun, why don't we "practice" the first four questions in this thread? I'm sure we can get some good ideas from the NOMmies.

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?
Answer: Yes.
(Personally, in my mind, I "might" be thinking: I faithfully testify that Elohim, Jehova and the Holy Spook are just as real as Allah, Brahma, and Zeus. This is my testimony.)

2. Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer?
Answer: Yes.
(I'm thinking: Like the previous question: I testify that Jesus is just as real as all of the other "Saviours and Redeemers" humans have invented. Osiris is likely one of my other favorites!)

3. Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Answer: Yes.
(Oh boy, here we go again: I faithfully testify that "The Resoration" is a load of lies, and made-up half-truths. This is my testimony.)

4. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?
Answer: Yes.

Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?
Answer: Yes.

Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?
Answer: Yes.
(What was it that Gordon Hinckley said on national television when an interviewer asked him if he was a prophet? "I am called as such" or something like that, wasn't it? That's a perfectly honest answer to every one of those questions: "They are called as such" or "I sustain those corporate titles" Yeah, I probably wouldn't say that last one out loud.)



While we're at it, let's answer the only question that really matters here:
15. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?
Answer: Yes.

The vast, vast majority of parents who have lived on this planet are "worthy" to see their kids get married. Full Stop.

I testify that you are worthy to see your child get married, Tangent. Don't let a giant real-estate corporation that masquerades as a church get in the way of making your child's day wonderful, with you included.

Amen to this ^^^


Remember this thread? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2724&p=34840&hilit= ... iew#p34840

[wtfluff]

Hey Fluff...

You skipped the underwear question.

Of course I did. Tangent only mentioned "the first four" questions. I tossed in one extra.

And I KNEW the Red Cowboy would bring up underwear.

BUT... Since you did bring it up: NONE of us made any promises or covenants to wear Magick Polygamist Freemason Pantaloons at any point during our "First Anointing." So here we go: What does "throughout your life" actually mean?

Remember this thread? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2724&p=34840&hilit= ... iew#p34840

Ah yes. The "good old days" back before they changed the questions (again.) It looks like I only repeated myself just a bit.

[Red Ryder]

Hey Fluff...

You skipped the underwear question.

Of course I did. Tangent only mentioned "the first four" questions. I tossed in one extra.

And I KNEW the Red Cowboy would bring up underwear.

BUT... Since you did bring it up: NONE of us made any promises or covenants to wear Magick Polygamist Freemason Pantaloons at any point during our "First Anointing." So here we go: What does "throughout your life" actually mean?

Sorry for the tangent Tangent!

But, I’m obsessed with the inherent fun factor of Religious underwear. I can’t honestly think of anything more silly than making a commitment to God by wearing a mixture of poly cotton long underwear while the globe continues to warm producing undesirable temperatures?

Then to be expected to not let said underwear touch the floor, to give it respect, and fold it neatly before it takes up the whole drawer?

If that’s not enough, I have to answer to my neighbor, a dentist, if I wear said commitment day and night as instructed throughout my life.

If that’s not funny enough, consider my great grandma, my grandma, both my mother and mother in-law, all sisters and sister in laws ALL wear the same underwear as my wife? That’s unbelievably funny!

If that’s not funny enough...

How the hell do people allow themselves to believe such stupid religious behavior? Here put these on and cover your nakedness from God. They will be a blessing and protection throughout your life. A protection from thinking...

/garment rant

Sorry Tangent. Let us know what you decide to do. I’ll even send a pizza to the temple parking lot of your choice while you wait outside.

[Hagoth]

The vast, vast majority of parents who have lived on this planet are "worthy" to see their kids get married. Full Stop.

Notice that they leave it up to you to declare whether or not you are worthy. Use your definition, not theirs.

Where did they get the money to build the temples? How much tithing have you paid in your life? I bet it was far more than the career churchmen, like Hinkley, Monson, and Packer at your age, who I'm certain they were tithing-exempt.

It's YOUR temple as much as anyone's, damnit. The one thing you can be certain of is that it's NOT the Lord's House. Even the Holiness to the Lord legend above the door is masonic.

[Tangent]

Thanks everyone for you support! You all make good points.
I haven’t decided yet what I’m going to do, but I don’t have a lot of time to figure it out….so one way or another I’ll be forced to do something.

Tangent

[Corsair]

I'm a bit late to this party, but I possess a current temple recommend. The nuance of the questions is what I do including the questions on tithing, Word of Wisdom, and underpants. The institutional church is inserting itself into major life events as a gatekeeper. You average Catholic church will happily let the atheist father and lapsed Catholic mother attend their daughter's wedding. The attitude of ever LDS believer from the top on down is that it is you as the apostate who has deliberately removed yourself from being worthy of a temple recommend. At no time do they conclusively establish why they prevent friends and family from simply observing religious rites in a polite, respectful manner.

The most holy and sacred rite of nearly all of Christendom is the sacrament of the Lord's supper. While churches may refuse communion to non-believers, they certainly are OK with non-believers being present and even using photography to record the service. The LDS church has taken a different path.