Quinn's book Magic World View

[Rob4Hope]

Hello all. I like to hit the ground running because I haven't had some good discussion in a while. But even though I am no longer LDS, I have respect for others who remain, provided they reciprocate the same. There are many who do--we get along famously. The rest?...I ignore, and there it is.

Anyway, I've wanted to read and learn more since being out. If anyone can still be "astonished", its me: TBM for 40 years, then realizing there were things I didn't know anything about and having my eyes opened in a painful way; what an eye-opener and whirlwind I have encountered! I may share more later about this faith transition, but for now, onto the topic at hand.

I am nearing the end of D. Michael Quinn's "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View" book. Let me say right off, this is NOT a trivial book: the guy delves, and each chapter has over 200 references. My master's thesis (the WHOLE THING) had about 60 references. So, this is HEAVY RESEARCH!!!

Occasionally things just blow me away. Here is a quote I am lifting directly from the book for reference:

By the time of his death in 1844, Joseph Smith had also reversed his prior rejection of the Cabala’s doctrine of “transmigration of the souls.” Two of the women Smith secretly married as plural wives in the 1840s said that he privately affirmed reincarnation. Apostle Lorenzo Snow said that “his sister, the late Eliza R. Snow Smith, was a firm believer in the principle of reincarnation and that she claimed to have received it from Joseph the Prophet, her husband.” Prescendia Huntington Buell (later Kimball) also affirmed her belief in “plural probations,” referring to a statement “in confirmation” by her polyandrous husband Joseph Smith. 516 In the 1840s their polygamous relationship to the Mormon prophet was as secret as his conversion to reincarnation".
Quinn, D. Michael. Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (Kindle Locations 20107-20113). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.

Let that soak in a moment....JS believed in Reincarnation?

Eliza R. Snow is no little shirker, and if Lorenzo Snow said it, as an Apostle...well, shucks: what can I say?....this is kindof a big deal.

There are foundational beliefs that the LDS church believes and teaches, but under the surface, there are other things that many would consider "fringe". And yet, these things are swept under the rug because they weren't taught openly....and yet "The prophet will never lead the church astray"?....

Anyone have comments?

PS> If this is the wrong place to post, just say so: I'm new to this particular forum and welcome any tips to get it in the right place...

[deacon blues]

The LDS church would be way different if Joseph Smith hadn't been murdered when he was. Still, this is surprising to me. I've got to go look it up. Thanks for the reference.

[20/20hind]

Ive read that book but missed that little nugget of info. Pretty crazy.

I wonder if joseph just aggreed with Eliza to make it easier to raise up seed? Happy wife, happy life.

[Rob4Hope]

One of the things that is the most interesting to me is Quinn published this from the "Faithful" perspective. Quinn was a believing person at the time--he didn't publish this to tear down the church.

This book is astonishing to me. The "lamans" (occult parchments) that were heirlooms of the Smith family? The "scrying" and money digging? The sacrificing of the goat to control the guardian spirits and the treasures? The religious and sacrificial dagger?

Wow! This is total crazy stuff.

[Raylan Givens]

The LDS church would be way different if Joseph Smith hadn't been murdered when he was. Still, this is surprising to me. I've got to go look it up. Thanks for the reference.

I often wonder what the church would look like if he had kept on going. I have a feeling we would be more like seventh day Adventist in our observance of diet.

Perhaps just as splintered as sons (perhaps polygamous offspring too) tried to usurp power.

Fun to think about...

My four year old daughter talks about when she was a boy, or an old lady, then lays out experiences that make me think....

[moksha]

I think Brigham Young echoed this concept as Multiple Mortal Probations.

Amoeba-->Jelly Fish-->Human-->Penguin-->Mormon-->Prophet, Seer and Revelator.

[Rob4Hope]

It is sooooo strange how the doctrines can be changed. This is something another thread could consume, but I remember how section 132 was just stuck in there. BY put it in there--no vote that I am aware of: it was just pushed.

In my own lifetime, I recall when Ezra Taft Benson was feeble and totally incapacitated. Monson and Hinckley ran the show--always saying the prophet was in control, but we all knew better--he was in bed on the edge of death; he was in NO WAY, SHAPE or FORM "in control."

So, who was running the church?

Transparency would have gone a long way for me with all of this stuff. All this sneaking around and "lying for the Lord" crap...

[Rob4Hope]

Back to the book.

Quinn pointed out over and over the dishonest and disingenuous statements members of FARMS have made over and over, twisting the narrative to "favor" the prophet. There were also serious time problems with the narrative that appear to be attempts from JS and others to change the narrative...but that was way in the early part of the book.

The thing that shocked me the most were the magic parchments.

Quick story that may be interesting.

I served my mission in Queensland Australia. While there I tracted into some 7th Day Adventist converts--3 teens. These teens had a sordid past--they were actually ex-occultists. I wont get into details about their activities--they were past being dabblers, and there was a rumor in that particular area of an active coven. Anyway...I thought it was a bunch of bunk until one of the teens went and gave me a copy of a magic book: The Goetia, the Lesser Key of Solomon. It was the weirdest thing I'd ever seen--a book with seals and descriptions of the hierarchy of demons, how to "bind" or control them, and so forth. I was kindof shocked.

Now, imagine my total shock when Quinn shows occult documents that Hyrum had and explained in ways that can't be refuted that JS jr. and JS sr, and MANY of the early leaders, used that stuff, studied it, and believed it--even trying to make a living out of it. The phrase "Holiness to the Lord" is a freaking magic conjuration even, on one of the parchments claimed.

The use of astrology was bewildering--JS timed his events to coincide with the times, seasons, and stages of the planets and stars. April 6th had significance. Sept 22 had significance. And, you are going to tell me GOD was the one who chose those dates that just happen to be VERY significant dates from the zodiak and JS horoscope?...which is used his whole life, as well as the magic parchments and the other books?

One thing Quinn said VERY CLEARLY and LOUDLY was the general belief that JS was unlearned is a total and complete myth. When JS died, he had a considerable library. Quinn also showed that the smith family had access to a VERY large number of books all over the place, and that ample copies of books about occult things were not only affordable, they were promoted, shared, and even in public libraries. Smith was VERY well learned in the topics of folk magic.

Further, Quinn explains that Luman Walters and others trained JS in the family business of treasure seeking. There was way more of that going on than the Church admits, and Quinn gave hundreds of citations showing that it really did happen--some from faithful "church" sources as well.

Not only that, many of the early "brethren" continued to engage in astrology, fortune reading, "scrying", and the like continuously through the remainder of their lives. It was one of the teachings of JS that "everyone" is entitled to a seer stone. This wasn't something he just lightly passed over--he had several "seer stones" that he kept his whole life. Some of those are under lock and key in the First Presidency Vault (I guess there is such a thing--Grant Palmer and Quinn both said it exists). So, if there are these cool rocks that can give revelation, why haven't they been used since, or even talked about?

Do we have 15 "seers and revelators" or don't we?

Thoughts?

[Hagoth]

I can't help but wonder how many prophets since Joseph have tried to tune in something on the magic rocks. Or do they not even have enough faith in their own putative seership to make the attempt?

[Culper Jr.]

I am currently about half way through this book, and you are not kidding about the documentation! I just finished the chapter about the magic parchments and about the Smith's treasure seeking instructors. Unbelievable how much folk magic pervaded their lives and how educated they were on the subject. I found out that Moroni morphed from a frog Joseph found in the stone box when he opened it and hit Joseph on the head when he tried to take the plates. He talks about how Joseph Sr. was prone to depression and alcoholism and how many of the parchments and magic items were to ward off the depression. Hyrum's magic dagger, the Jupiter talisman that wasn't Masonic as many suppose, the concept of the treasure "slipping away" deeper into the earth and moving as they would almost get to it.... wow, just a really interesting book... but not an easy read!

[Rob4Hope]

Culpeper, I remember the treasure "slipping away" part. Your post brought up the memory of that section.

It was crazy....these people would believe the treasure (if it existed at all) would somehow slide away through the dirt. I got the impression is was like a worm or something burrowing its way through hard compacted dirt and rock. But, that was what JS said happened as he LOOKED IN THE STONE.

This same stone, this same infallible stone, was used to translate the Book of Mormon, which had nothing to do with the plates--it was the stone in his hat.

The whole narrative has been collapsed for me. I no longer believe much of anything I grew up being taught. Oh well...that is why I am on sites like this; at least hear I can share my skepticism openly and have others honestly validate "they get it."

[Rob4Hope]

Well,...I keep seeing arguments between FARMS members and Quinn--they attack his work and he blasts back. I think those FARMS guys met their match with this guy Quinn. He appears, if anything, to be one of the best informed people I have ever read.

I keep seeing Stephen E. Robinson out there, and that name was familiar. Then it clicked: "Believing Christ"...he was the author. Back in my TBM days, I really liked that book--it gave me hope. Since my exodus, I am suspicious of everyone and everything (because I feel lied to for my whole life), and I now see that Robinson is a FARMS polemicist.

Interesting.....

One of the things that bothers me in this book, outside of the information that is shocking (and not in a way lacking credibility) is what appears to be either bad scholarship on the polemicist side in FARMS, or flat out lies and distortions they weave. Quinn appears (and I acknowledge I am not a scholar--but I am trying) to honestly attempt to back up what he says. He does show quotes from FARMS people attacking his work which appear to be distortions and even lies--those folks seem to do that for the sake of sanitizing the narrative. It makes me angry--its institutional deception.

Though not related to this thread, I have read some exchanges between Brian Hales and others, and boy does it seem Brian does similar distorting. Doing everything and anything to make JS look good, or soften what appears to be egregious behaviors, even crimes, seems to be the objective. That, in the definition taught to me by the LDS church, is "bearing false witness."

Ain't there some commandment or something by this strange guy out there name Jesus or something, that talks about that?... I seem to recall something like that.

[wtfluff]

Where do I "cast my vote" to get Quinn's books in audio format?

I guess I just need to buck-up and buy the Kindle version...

[Rob4Hope]

I learned something else in my Post-Mo group on Sunday at the Harmons in SLC--had to do with the "martyrdom-canes". So, apparently the wagon that held the bodies of JS and HS after they were shot was salvaged for wood and canes were made out of the wagon. One cane ended up with BY, another with Heber C. Kimball. These guys believed, and taught using their "prophetic mantle" that the cane were, basically, holy relics, imbued with special spiritual powers. Here is a quote:

Kimball added that the martyrdom-canes possessed amuletic powers against Satan: “And the day will come when there will be multitudes who will be healed and blessed through the instrumentality of those canes, and the devil cannot overcome those who have them, in consequence of their faith and confidence in the virtues connected with them.”

Quinn, D. Michael. Early Mormonism and the Magic World View (Kindle Locations 20544-20546). Signature Books. Kindle Edition.

Interesting stuff. It makes "sacred relics" something the church, at least historically, was very interested in. It also seems very much like a mild form of idol worship to me....just sayin...

[Rob4Hope]

Yeh...ok, I gotta talk about something else that is coming to mind.

When I was in Australia talking to those ex-occultists, I asked point blank what the pentagram circle, candles, blood and all that was about. I was given a fairly candid answer. I was told that what really happens is those things are created to bridge the gap between the spirit and physical worlds, and also to provide protection to those performing the rite. You see, when the "demon arises" (as in appears), there is danger it will attack or something, so those diagrams and seals are there to provide protection. Once the whole thing happens and the demon is there, the purpose then is to negotiate and make deals. Things like revenge, money, power or other things are sought, and in payment, a price is exacted. The price is often barbaric and evil....or so they say.

OK...this is what those teens told me like 30 years ago,..and its been corroborated by other sources I am aware of since, so this is creepy stuff.

One of the parchments that Hyrum had was a binding spell which used similar pentagrams, holy words like the tetragamaton, and so for. So, when I came to that part of the book and saw a picture of that, is it any wonder (with my prior exposure to this) why the hair and the back of my neck stood up?

CREEPY! This stuff is plain old CREEPY to me!!!

The thing that is coming up for me is this "binding" type spell. In the D&C, there is a section that says: "I the Lord am bound when ye do what I say,...." Quinn mentions that this section appears to have its roots in some of these parchments, and this occult world view the Smith family had. Why?...because this type of language is pretty similar to other contemporary things that swirl with this occult view. Furthermore, when was the last time you looked at the SL temple and the astrological symbols all over it? What could possibly be the purpose of those? I mean, really?.....

Ever hear a GA say that we should work to "bind the Lord"?....I have. Now it has a whole different meaning to me.

And one last thing,...you are telling me that JS looked in his seer stone and it told him where the treasure was, and that he needed to bleed a goat in a circle around the supposed site of the treasure to prevent the spirits from hiding the treasure further away? So now we are doing animal sacrifice?

Wow,...my friends told me stuff about that as well...and JS did it because this magical "crystal ball" told him that was how to capture the treasure?

By the way, JS never did find a treasure. And the stuff he was doing and saying God told him, is plain witchcraft. Period.

[Rob4Hope]

I finished....sing sing,...la la la...dance dance.....I finished...sing sing...happy happy.

Big whopper of a book.

On to the next one. Its easier. I'll be done with that in about a week or so.

[MoPag]

Ain't there some commandment or something by this strange guy out there name Jesus or something, that talks about that?... I seem to recall something like that.

I think you mean Jebus.

Jebus.png (124.63 KiB) Viewed 11271 times

[moksha]

It was fun to watch good witch Robin Tunney bind the mean girl witches in the movie, The Craft. However, Tunney would need to be a powerful warlock in order to bind entire families together in Heaven.

For modern Mormons, one group that consistently falls through the cracks are parents in a second marriage that cannot be bound in heaven to their own children, because of the binding by powerful Mormon warlocks on previous marriages. Their only recourse is to hope God will sort out the limitations of these warlock bindings.

[MalcolmVillager]

Very interesting stuff all. I think I am going to buy a Jupiter talisman. Do you think they have them on Amazon? I am just lurking and mooching on this exceptional post. Way to go all!

[GoodBoy]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing!