I'm tired

[Palerider]

She asked about why I believe Joseph Smith wrote the BoM... I got a few examples in and that was shut down.

Don't ever answer a question like this without first ascertaining why she wants to know.

Something like this:

DW: Why do you think that Joseph Smith wrote the BofM?

Jfro: I'm not sure you really want to know the answer to that question. I doubt that you trust my opinion so why would I trust you to really be an objective listener? It would be a waste of both our time.
But I want you to trust me so why don't you tell me why the BofM is so important to you?"

Then you need to listen. And when she's done, even consider not making much of a reply. Just say something to the effect of, "I understand. I see why you feel this way. I just want you to know that I love you and hope someday you'll have the capacity to understand me as well."

As Stephen Covey says: "Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply."

This is why she is asking the question. She doesn't want to understand you or your heart. She only wants to shoot you down.

But the way to overcome her distrust is to show that you do understand her fear and frustration.
Fear and frustration translate into anger. She needs to know that Heavenly Father is much more loving, kind and forgiving than she has made him in her heart.

Instead of making this about your disaffection from the church, change the discussion and make it about understanding her fears. Don't worry quite so much about your child. Kids are amazingly flexible and have a great ability to repair. At some point they will come to ask questions and you will have the answers. And who knows maybe Mom will be right there with you because she's grown out of the church.

[jfro18]

Don't ever answer a question like this without first ascertaining why she wants to know.

Something like this:

DW: Why do you think that Joseph Smith wrote the BofM?

Jfro: I'm not sure you really want to know the answer to that question. I doubt that you trust my opinion so why would I trust you to really be an objective listener? It would be a waste of both our time.
But I want you to trust me so why don't you tell me why the BofM is so important to you?"

I did not do this quite as eloquently, but I did reply immediately with "What do you want to know by asking that question?"

She replied with something along the lines of 'I want to know how you think someone as uneducated as Joseph Smith could write a complex book like this."

I replied with "Just so I'm clear, are you asking why I think it's not historical or why JS wrote it? And are you asking because you want to have that discussion?"

She said she wanted to know what I've uncovered that would suggest JS wrote it.

But yeah, it was of course a dead end. And you're right - she has said multiple times that if she left the church she would turn into a terrible person, which is heartbreaking but not unique.

It is what it is, but I think you're right in future conversations I will just stick to asking about where she's coming from. I had told her at the outset yesterday that she knows what I've written/researched and until she's ready to tackle that I'm not going to bring it up... she was offended at the idea that I think that she's not 'open to it,' but that ties into the above.

[Palerider]

... she was offended at the idea that I think that she's not 'open to it,' but that ties into the above.

The fact that the suggestion offended her is evidence that you hit pretty close to the mark. If she were truly open she would have felt sorry that you didn't see her as sincere. Trust has to be a two way street.

But as Covey says: "Seek first to understand, then seek to be understood."

Rather than putting yourself on the belief scale have you considered giving her a little challenge like:

Jfro: "If you really and truly want to know why I feel the way I do why don't you take just 30 minutes and listen to this podcast by (fill in the blank) and then tell me what you think?"

This way it isn't you being the "bad guy".

Something short from RFM or Mormon stories where she can listen to either evidence or the stories of other people who are having similar issues.

Do you think she would go for that?

[jfro18]

Jfro: "If you really and truly want to know why I feel the way I do why don't you take just 30 minutes and listen to this podcast by (fill in the blank) and then tell me what you think?"

This way it isn't you being the "bad guy".

Something short from RFM or Mormon stories where she can listen to either evidence or the stories of other people who are having similar issues.

Do you think she would go for that?

I doubt it, but I might ask as I know this is going to come up again probably tonight. She had originally asked me to 'put together your evidence that proves the church isn't true,' and I asked if she really wanted to see it... she said yes. That was the basis for the overview project I'm almost done with, although I knew at the time she would likely never read them.

But to your point, maybe she would listen to another podcast that wasn't me saying it and then have a conversation that way. I honestly doubt it though as you said she gets very offended at the idea she doesn't want to know yet also tells me there's nothing I could ever say that would matter.

It's just a crushing experience every time, and I don't think that will ever go away, but I hadn't brought it up in so long I was caught off guard.

[Red Ryder]

I once asked my wife “what would you do if President Nelson called you to be his polygamous wife?”

Her response told me I’ll I needed to know concerning her commitment to the church.

Cog dis is a powerful spell.

[Palerider]

But to your point, maybe she would listen to another podcast that wasn't me saying it and then have a conversation that way. I honestly doubt it though as you said she gets very offended at the idea she doesn't want to know yet also tells me there's nothing I could ever say that would matter.

This may be true. She may never believe what you have to say. But that doesn't mean she won't believe someone else. Especially another woman.

Women listen to other women, especially when they can relate to that woman and can say to themselves, "Hey, she's just like me. We have many of the same shared life experiences."

If you could find a podcast that was interviewing an LDS woman that was interesting and relatable, you might find she would be interested in listening to more. I know there are some out there. Might not even have to be directly about the BofM.

Baby steps.

[Palerider]

I once asked my wife “what would you do if President Nelson called you to be his polygamous wife?”

Her response told me I’ll I needed to know concerning her commitment to the church.

Cog dis is a powerful spell.

I really hope she wasn't serious.....

This is where I want to say that LDS leadership should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for manipulating people to the point where they think this might be acceptable.

[jfro18]

I really hope she wasn't serious.....

This is where I want to say that LDS leadership should be absolutely ashamed of themselves for manipulating people to the point where they think this might be acceptable.

I can't speak for RR, but when I first was talking with DW about church stuff and I was talking about how much the idea of polygamy bothered me, she explicitly said 'The only way I would enter into a polygamous marriage was if the prophet asked me to.'

And the thing I remember to this day is she said it with this smile like "See, you have nothing to worry about" and I remember after we were done talking just stopping and having that 'Did that really just happen?' feeling.

That one still just creeps me out to this day and I think always will.

[Red Ryder]

Yeah my wife didn’t have to fully commit because she said “that won’t happen!”

I was trying to make the hypothetical point that by default of her faith and obedience, she would HAVE to say yes. That’s how deep the expected commitment is. Like willingness to move to Missouri if the prophet commanded.

So yes, fully committed but given a built in excuse “because he wouldn’t ask....”

The other one is “God won’t make me live in polygamy in the next life...” what about the D&C 132 doctrine? God commands but makes exceptions because your uncomfortable? It’s either doctrinal and you believe it or it’s not and you don’t. At this point of the conversation her thinking shuts down and she gets defensive.

When all church conversations end with defensive disagreements, I’ve learned to just stop engaging.

Is it healthy for the relationship? Probably not.

[wtfluff]

Like willingness to move to Missouri if the prophet commanded.

HA! I "met" someone in traffic a few years ago who was "into" moving to Missouri.

[Palerider]

But yeah, it was of course a dead end. And you're right - she has said multiple times that if she left the church she would turn into a terrible person, which is heartbreaking but not unique.

One last comment on this particular issue.

This really bugs me.

The church makes a huge claim that it is founded on Jesus Christ. "We're Christians! Actually we're the only true Christians!" Blah, blah, blah....

So if the LDS church is truly founded on Jesus Christ, you should be able to remove Joseph Smith and the church would continue to stand, right? My inclination is to ask, "If you take away Joseph Smith does the Mormon church still function and exist as before?"

Next question:

"Okay, if Joseph Smith is no longer a part of the equation then what happens to your faith in Jesus Christ? Are you a good person because of Joseph Smith or are you a good person because of your faith in Jesus Christ?"

To Mormons (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints, ((don't want to be stereotyped as being evil!))): I ask:

In other words, if Joseph Smith fails in Mormon minds then ALL of Christianity fails with him. Is that what you're telling me? Is your faith really in Christ or is it in the mortal man of flesh, Joseph Smith?

Isn't it possible that God has something else in mind for his people/kingdom that neither Joseph Smith or you or any of these "modern prophets" were aware of? Wouldn't it be worth spending some time and effort to discover what God wants for you by going directly to Him rather than saying, "Oh, I'd be a terrible person if not for Joseph Smith and his church....?"

I know numerous ex-lds go down the agnostic road but if a person decides to do that it shouldn't be because Joseph Smith was a false prophet.

For those who would be completely lost without Joseph I say, "Where is your faith in Christ who you claim is the center of your belief? Is Christ so hinged to Joseph Smith that He cannot stand alone? If so, who do you REALLY worship...?"

Sorry for the rant but as I said, this is a great aggravation to me.

[jfro18]

One last comment on this particular issue.

This really bugs me.

The church makes a huge claim that it is founded on Jesus Christ. "We're Christians! Actually we're the only true Christians!" Blah, blah, blah....

Yep - this one for whatever reason is just so crushing to me, because it shows how completely tied our identities are to the church.

This idea that without the church being true that you just throw it all away and start doing awful things is just nonsensical - people are going to do what they're going to. Maybe there is a restraint there out of fear of losing exaltation, but I have not seen that for anyone I've talked to that left the church, although of course you'll always have the exception.

But the idea that my wife truly believes that she would just become a terrible person if she lost belief is really heartbreaking. She deserves so much more confidence in herself, and the church robs her of that.

And you hit the nail on the head, and I've mentioned it before to her. Jesus Christ does not need Mormonism to be true, but Mormonism needs Jesus Christ to be true. You can take away the Book of Mormon and still have a belief in Christ, but the church works so hard to make the equation all or none... it really sucks that way.

[Palerider]

Jesus Christ does not need Mormonism to be true, but Mormonism needs JOSEPH SMITH in order to be true. You can take away the Book of Mormon and still have a belief in Christ, but the church works so hard to make the equation all or none... it really sucks that way.

I think I see what you're saying but for me it reads better as above.

Without Joseph Smith, Mormonism collapses. But Christ can go on just fine without him.

[jfro18]

I think I see what you're saying but for me it reads better as above.

Without Joseph Smith, Mormonism collapses. But Christ can go on just fine without him.

Yes, that is both much better and so much more succinct.

The crazy thing is that as members we are conditioned to think that Christ lives and dies with the church.

[Reuben]

One last comment on this particular issue.

This really bugs me.

The church makes a huge claim that it is founded on Jesus Christ. "We're Christians! Actually we're the only true Christians!" Blah, blah, blah....

Yep - this one for whatever reason is just so crushing to me, because it shows how completely tied our identities are to the church.

Quick exercise: list a few of your identities.

Here are some of mine, in the order I thought of them: father, husband, computer scientist, American.

All of them - even computer scientist - either arise from a personal or group relationship, or are closely tied to at least one relationship. The fact is that identities are always social things. Why else would you need one, except to relate to others? What would the point of distinguishing yourself be?

At one point, ex-Mormon would have been high on my list. My identity was still very closely tied to the church.

IMO, the church's main evil here is insisting that your identity as a Mormon always be your first identity, in every situation. How they achieve that, such as convincing you that you're nothing without them, can be pretty damaging. The consequences of it can be pretty damaging, too.

I don't think I'm contradicting anyone here, just clarifying.

This social identity framing suggests some strategies for helping someone either extricate themselves or allow their Mormon identity to take a back seat more often. (Either is fine!) One strategy would be to play up someone's other identities. Setting out to destroy the Mormon one usually backfires because it feels to the other person like a mortal attack. Trying to diminish it directly usually doesn't work, either. But what if it just became relatively less important because the other ones became more salient?

You're such a good mother.

Can I have your help on this thing that requires your knowledge or expertise?

I love how we can talk about things, even when it's difficult. You're a great friend.

I have a lot of respect for the teachings of Jesus.

It's not flattery, it's reprioritizing.

[Newme]

The great Joseph Smith trap (and lie).

1. Through our ordinances, we are the only way you can have your children in Heaven with you.

2. Anyone who tells you differently is inspired by Satan and EVIL!!!


Most (not all) Mormon women are particularly susceptible to this entrapment. If there's even a chance that they can keep their kids forever it's worth turning a blind eye to any inconsistency, any indiscretion, any doctrinal nonsense.

Many Mormon men are in the same boat.

True!
That’s partly why I see arguing his-story as pointless, & besides there are much more serious issues... Eg:

1) Financial corruption - how would TBM mothers (& fathers) feel if THEIR children were suffering in starvation, and yet were manipulated into giving food money to the greedy church?
Here are GA quotes of this evil:
https://youtu.be/6xwaM95gptg

2) What parent in their right mind would subject their children to an organization with a pattern of covering up child-sex-abuse?? And this year’s youth manual has pedophile symbols.

LDS Leaders Sex Abuse Cover-ups
“The Mormon church has a “culture” that protects sexual predators, Johnson said during the press conference.
“There is a very real, horrendous problem in the church right now,” she said. “That problem is that sexual predators are more protected in the Mormon church than innocent children and vulnerable adults.”
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5b36 ... 3a8f69aff1

Participants (Native Americans) in the Church-sponsored Indian Student Placement Program have filed at least three sexual-abuse lawsuits.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ch/504944/

"An Arizona prosecutor, who says a lawyer for the LDS Church told a bishop he didn’t need to inform police that a child was being sexually abused, has filed a bar complaint against that attorney and his law firm.
An indictment against the child’s parents suggests the abuse went on for a decade...”
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/local/2 ... s-lawyers/

President Nelson was involved in a case that was dismissed. It’s possible that Nelson & his daughter are innocent, but then why were Mile’s charges mysteriously dismissed despite Bill Cartensen admitting to being one of the perpetrator along with Brenda Miles (Nelson’s daughter), who was “mostly the cheerleeder and took the videos” during the sexual abuse “parties” (p. 15 & 20)?? If they were innocent why admit to something so disgustingly shameful?
https://www.restoreourhumanity.org/files/ABlipHere.pdf

Utah Highest in Sex Abuse Rates of Children
https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-has-hi ... f-children

There’s also reason to not trust Zoom, despite the church investing in & using it...

ZOOM EXECUTIVE EXPOSED AS CHINESE COMMUNIST SPY WHO SABOTAGED ANTI-CHINA VIDEO CONFERENCES WITH CHILD PORN AND TERRORISM: DOJ
https://clarion.causeaction.com/2020/12 ... orism-doj/

Zoom Executive Based in China Spied on Dissidents at the Behest of the Chinese Communist Party
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/r ... y-n1220998

[Palerider]

Quick exercise: list a few of your identities.

Here are some of mine, in the order I thought of them: father, husband, computer scientist, American.

All of them - even computer scientist - either arise from a personal or group relationship, or are closely tied to at least one relationship. The fact is that identities are always social things. Why else would you need one, except to relate to others? What would the point of distinguishing yourself be?

At one point, ex-Mormon would have been high on my list. My identity was still very closely tied to the church.

IMO, the church's main evil here is insisting that your identity as a Mormon always be your first identity, in every situation. How they achieve that, such as convincing you that you're nothing without them, can be pretty damaging. The consequences of it can be pretty damaging, too.

I don't think I'm contradicting anyone here, just clarifying.

This social identity framing suggests some strategies for helping someone either extricate themselves or allow their Mormon identity to take a back seat more often. (Either is fine!) One strategy would be to play up someone's other identities. Setting out to destroy the Mormon one usually backfires because it feels to the other person like a mortal attack. Trying to diminish it directly usually doesn't work, either. But what if it just became relatively less important because the other ones became more salient?

You're such a good mother.

Can I have your help on this thing that requires your knowledge or expertise?

I love how we can talk about things, even when it's difficult. You're a great friend.

I have a lot of respect for the teachings of Jesus.

It's not flattery, it's reprioritizing.

I see where you're going with this and my only comment would be that most members tie all of their identities back to the church through their membership. This may not be quite as prevalent among converts because they had a number of identities that they may have been successful at before becoming a member.

But for those born into the church it looks much more like this:

I'm a good mom because I'm a Mormon.

I'm a great doctor because I'm a Mormon.

I'm a better communicator because I'm a Mormon.

You get the picture. Mormons put their membership in first place because it makes them as good as they are, even if that isn't so great. "Just imagine what I would be without Mormonism!" Things would be even worse....

They don't realize that there are millions of really good, honest, loyal, believing people out there who are that way without Mormonism. Outsiders are always viewed with skepticism and in need of conversion so that they can be trusted and reach their full potential, which is what Mormonism does.

I remember listening to talks when I was a kid where the speaker would say, "Mormonism makes bad men good and good men better."

They have convinced people that Mormonism is the vehicle of perfectionism.

The reality is that Christ makes dead men live.

As Christ taught, no one is "good" in the perfect sense of that word. Not Henry B. Eyring. Not Spencer W. Kimball. Not David Bednar.....
All of us depend on Christ's works for salvation. But according to the LDS faith one can only be fully saved through the belief in and works of Joseph Smith.

Do we really want to go down the road that Christ can do nothing without Joseph?

[oliblish]

Tired of trying to convince my wife that the church is all B.S. she sticks her head in the sand!! It's been 6 years and still no progress !! I could use some encouragement.

I totally understand the frustration. When I first realized that the church was a bunch of BS about 9 years ago I thought I could just tell my wife what I had learned and she would immediately see things the way I did. Boy was I wrong! Since then I have learned about the backfire effect, cog dis, confirmation bias, etc... She doubled down since then and is much more into the church than she was before. She probably studies church books and youtube videos over an hour a day now and much more on Sunday!

I wish there was a better end to my story but to make a long story short I moved into my own apartment about a month ago. The divorce should be finalized in the next few months. I have a lot less money and possessions and am waiting for the legal bills to come in.

I know you were asking for encouragement but I don't have a lot of that to give out right now.

Good luck!

[Palerider]

Tired of trying to convince my wife that the church is all B.S. she sticks her head in the sand!! It's been 6 years and still no progress !! I could use some encouragement.

I totally understand the frustration. When I first realized that the church was a bunch of BS about 9 years ago I thought I could just tell my wife what I had learned and she would immediately see things the way I did. Boy was I wrong! Since then I have learned about the backfire effect, cog dis, confirmation bias, etc... She doubled down since then and is much more into the church than she was before. She probably studies church books and youtube videos over an hour a day now and much more on Sunday!

I wish there was a better end to my story but to make a long story short I moved into my own apartment about a month ago. The divorce should be finalized in the next few months. I have a lot less money and possessions and am waiting for the legal bills to come in.

I know you were asking for encouragement but I don't have a lot of that to give out right now.

Good luck!

So sorry to hear this.

And she will have such a sob story to tell. Everyone in her echo chamber will sympathize with her. She got such a raw deal. Satan is working overtime in the church now. Even the elect might not be saved. Circle the wagons.....

I hope you do well.

[alas]

The answer about how to give him both perspectives without confusing him is simple. “Mom believes X,Y, & Z. Dad believes A,B, &C.” If you keep it as *belief*, rather than insisting that either belief is *fact* and one is true, while nothing else can be, then kids catch on really quickly that grandparents believe like Mom, this other neighbor believes D,E, & F, while his friend at school believes H,J, &K.

I get that part - we've always framed everything as "I believe X,Y,Z because of A,B,C" without going into fact checking and we've never once (at least I haven't and I trust she hasn't) compared our beliefs to him in a way that sets one up as right, one up as wrong. Where we're struggling is that my opinion is that if our kid is taught a lesson in church that I'd like to explain where I'm coming from, which is really difficult because it will come off as deconstructing what he was just taught.

On the flip side, if I never say anything, then those lessons because fact just as a few years ago when he came in and told me that he couldn't wait to go to the temple and that "who can share the Book of Mormon? We can!"

I just want to have a role in how he's taught, but I feel like the equation is setup that any role I have will be really jarring because it would only come after he's been told the church's stance.

I don't want my kid to be like me, finding out years later and having those feelings of shock and betrayal. I also don't want my kid to be like DW,who has stated that there is not a single thing anyone could ever say or show her that would convince her, which is of course her right and prerogative, but I don't want to set my kid down that path.

And I know this is far from unique to people going through this... I just want to have a role in this and I feel like the only way that happens is to be the person who is like Wreck-It Ralph just going in and destroying what was built, which is an impossible task.

You are thinking that you have to wait until after the church indoctrinated him and then try to undo the damage and of course that won’t work. You have to assert your right to teach him right along with what your wife teaches him. You are equally the kid’s parent, so why shouldn’t you get equal time in teaching him, or even SOME time. So, yeah, have that fight with your wife and demand that you be allowed right from the start to tell your side of things.

When kids grow up in a bilingual home, with two languages being used, they automatically separate them and never get confused. But if one language is introduced later, after the child is fluent in a first language, then the child confuses the different languages. It has to be bilingual, not one language is used and the other is mentioned as an afterthought.

So, yes, what I am suggesting is you have to demand a say in how your kid is raised. That is going to cause a disagreement with the wife who wants the kid raised *exclusively* Mormon. But shouldn’t you get a say in how your own child is raised?

This isn’t like my relative who married a Catholic and in order for her to be a good married Catholic instead of living in sin was for him to promise before the marriage to be married in the church and to raise all children as Catholic. You never promised to allow her to raise all children *her* way. You both just assumed you would both stay Mormon and of course your children would be raised Mormon. But it was never a stated promise as part of the marriage vows. So, you have the right to change your mind about Mormonism and demand a say in how your child is raised.

But you gotta stand up for that right and maybe that takes fighting with the wife. And the longer you put off that fight, the less chance you have of teaching your child without confusing them about why the change from all Mormon teaching to bi-religious teaching.

Personally, I opted for staying quiet so all three of my kids were raised fully Mormon and one still is. I wasn’t willing to risk the marriage in order to stand up for my own right to teach my kids my personal beliefs. I wasn’t willing to have that fight with my husband. But back then, I figured the church was more good than bad. So, I didn’t think it would harm my kids to be raised fully Mormon. Now, I see my oldest felt second rate as a girl because of the church’s sexism and my second turned out lesbian and of course was hurt by the church’s homophobia.

So, I am not one to judge if you decide it isn’t worth the fight.