Leaders who incite violence.

[deacon blues]

Brigham Young, March 27, 1853.
I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet. [Voices, generally, “go it, go it.”] If you say it is right, raise your hands. [All hands up.] Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.] Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet. [Voices, generally, “go it, go it.”] If you say it is right, raise your hands. [All hands up.] Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.
BRIGHAM YOUNG, 27 MARCH 1853, JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, VOL. 1, P. 83



I first heard this quote as a 20 year old missionary. But though we don't hear it in church meetings, I think it represents a covert pattern of thinking in the LDS Church: a disturbing correlation between Mormonism and violence is explored in one of the Church essays, "Peace and Violence Among 19th Century Latter-day Saints." The essay covers violence against Mormons, and also retaliatory violence by Mormons. I'll cherry pick a quote: "In addition, Mormon vigilantes, including many Danites, raided two towns believed to be centers of anti-Mormon activity, burning homes and stealing goods.22 Though the existence of the Danites was short-lived, it resulted in a longstanding and much-embellished myth about a secret society of Mormon vigilantes." But I might be wrong.

I recommend a good article in the "Wheat and Tares" "DezNet and the Latter-day Saint Vigilante Tradition.
What is the deal with this?

[alas]

And then there is Brigham Young and his incitement of violence and Mountain Meadows.

[moksha]

Here is a good related podcast from Mormon Stories: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAkDVFUalAI

[Hagoth]

And then there is Brigham Young and his incitement of violence and Mountain Meadows.

Not to mention the threats of beheading the children of mixed-race marriages.

[2bizE]

What would happen if a violent mob did the same thing when Oaks becomes president?

[SaidNobody]

And then there is Brigham Young and his incitement of violence and Mountain Meadows.

This isn't fair.

I don't like BY much, but he covered up the crime, he didn't incite it.

Even though the innocent 144 wagon train members might have been the only victims of the Utah War, Utah was at war with the United States from 1856-1859. Johnson's army had been camped about 50 miles outside of salt lake City for a number of months. I don't remember exactly how many. The army entered Salt Lake City in July 1858. The Mormons stood at the ready to torch the city and all of their food supplies. Johnson's army would have starved to death without the assistance of the Mormons at that point. Many of them had died in the canyons over the winter.

I don't know exactly how many days it took to ride from salt lake to St George, but it wasn't a short ride especially if you went by wagon. It could take weeks. But there was definitely hostile feelings going on. Some people underplay the effect this army camped outside of the Mormons capital had on this event. They say that there were some horses involved.

I know that the Mormons misled the people of the wagon train. I don't exactly know all of the motives. But I don't think it's fair to say that Brigham Young was inciting violence. This happened down around St George and Brigham Young was up around salt lake City. The whole event took place in about 3 days. I'm not sure if someone rode to salt lake to get excitement from Brigham Young and then road back to St George on horseback to massacre these people.

What I do regret, is that I do think there was a cover up. Whatever the motives I think they were straight up murder. It might have been anger motivated, but I don't think it was deserved. If I understand my history correctly one of Brigham Young's sons or step sons by the name of John de Lee was part of the massacre. He was tried and put to death, where he spent The rest of his 40 years in Lee's Ferry at the Grand canyon.

It is believed the Brigham Young allowed John de Lee to take the blame and then covered for his escape.

The ghosts of this event gathered and cursed the United States so that exactly 144 years later, the exact number in the wagon train, the United States was attacked on September 11th 2001. Destroying the illusion that all is well in Zion.

[SaidNobody]

BTW I was making a funny about the 144 years versus 144 victims. And I have no reason to believe that MMM had to do anything with the 9/11.

Anyway.

This is what I have been watching for the last 4 years. Hundreds and hundreds of hours of this. These are just short clips with some of the highlights. But I would appreciate it If someone could address how they feel about this sort of inciting violence, compared to what they saw Republicans do. Be honest. If you think that what Republicans did was more straightforward and violent inciting, please point it out to me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5RFG6imJp ... e=youtu.be

I would appreciate some genuine and open dialogue. The only way this country will heal is if we learn to respect each other. I don't need anyone to change their opinion of what is right for the nation, I just need us to respect each other. When I was downplaying what some called the violence in one of the previous links is because I have watched this kind of stuff for a long time. It's not hard to find because it is put out there at the highest level. We won't even get into where four children murdered another kid because of his political affiliations.

[w2mz]

This is why I think that when RMN says crap like the youth is the “Lord’s Battalion” it really falls flat with the kids today. The kids don’t want to be violent, they want to be accepting and loving. Those old duffers at HC are so stuck in the 50’s though they can’t see how idiotic they sound to young people.

[SaidNobody]

This is why I think that when RMN says crap like the youth is the “Lord’s Battalion” it really falls flat with the kids today. The kids don’t want to be violent, they want to be accepting and loving. Those old duffers at HC are so stuck in the 50’s though they can’t see how idiotic they sound to young people.

Testosterone levels have dropped to alarming levels in the US. Kids don't want to be loving, they have been socially neutered. Don't mistake hormonal deprivation as kindness.

[alas]

And then there is Brigham Young and his incitement of violence and Mountain Meadows.

This isn't fair.

I don't like BY much, but he covered up the crime, he didn't incite it.

Even though the innocent 144 wagon train members might have been the only victims of the Utah War, Utah was at war with the United States from 1856-1859. Johnson's army had been camped about 50 miles outside of salt lake City for a number of months. I don't remember exactly how many. The army entered Salt Lake City in July 1858. The Mormons stood at the ready to torch the city and all of their food supplies. Johnson's army would have starved to death without the assistance of the Mormons at that point. Many of them had died in the canyons over the winter.

I don't know exactly how many days it took to ride from salt lake to St George, but it wasn't a short ride especially if you went by wagon. It could take weeks. But there was definitely hostile feelings going on. Some people underplay the effect this army camped outside of the Mormons capital had on this event. They say that there were some horses involved.

I know that the Mormons misled the people of the wagon train. I don't exactly know all of the motives. But I don't think it's fair to say that Brigham Young was inciting violence. This happened down around St George and Brigham Young was up around salt lake City. The whole event took place in about 3 days. I'm not sure if someone rode to salt lake to get excitement from Brigham Young and then road back to St George on horseback to massacre these people.

What I do regret, is that I do think there was a cover up. Whatever the motives I think they were straight up murder. It might have been anger motivated, but I don't think it was deserved. If I understand my history correctly one of Brigham Young's sons or step sons by the name of John de Lee was part of the massacre. He was tried and put to death, where he spent The rest of his 40 years in Lee's Ferry at the Grand canyon.

It is believed the Brigham Young allowed John de Lee to take the blame and then covered for his escape.

The ghosts of this event gathered and cursed the United States so that exactly 144 years later, the exact number in the wagon train, the United States was attacked on September 11th 2001. Destroying the illusion that all is well in Zion.

My dad had some oral history from someone who participated in the killing. At least I guess, I would sure like to know where the hell he knew some of what he knew. That is the only explanation for some of the things he told my family in about 1957ish (I would have been under 8) when we first visited MMM monument. (Only it wasn’t even much of a monument, just a windswept pile or rocks.) I didn’t realize at the time that he knew stuff that was not in any historical record until after I learned what was in the historical record, and after they dug up the bodies of the men who were shot in the head to add forensics to the historical record. So, I beg to differ with your opinion. I have inside information, that no, I won’t put out for the public, because I have no idea how true it is. But it gives me a different opinion. And it was “riders (plural) from SLC”.

But even going from the historical record, there are others who think B Y incited it. No one that I know of says that specifically that BY said “attack the wagon train,” but just in general saying that outsiders could not be trusted and we have to avenge the Prophet, Hyrum, and whichever Pratt brother was killed in Arkansas because he tried to seduce some guy’s wife. Now, think about where that wagon train was from. Just know that his rhetoric was applied to others than just the army, and was not without consequences. Sometimes we just do not know how people are going to understand what we say.

[SaidNobody]

My dad had some oral history from someone who participated in the killing. At least I guess, I would sure like to know where the hell he knew some of what he knew. That is the only explanation for some of the things he told my family in about 1957ish (I would have been under 8) when we first visited MMM monument. (Only it wasn’t even much of a monument, just a windswept pile or rocks.) I didn’t realize at the time that he knew stuff that was not in any historical record until after I learned what was in the historical record, and after they dug up the bodies of the men who were shot in the head to add forensics to the historical record. So, I beg to differ with your opinion. I have inside information, that no, I won’t put out for the public, because I have no idea how true it is. But it gives me a different opinion. And it was “riders (plural) from SLC”.

But even going from the historical record, there are others who think B Y incited it. No one that I know of says that specifically that BY said “attack the wagon train,” but just in general saying that outsiders could not be trusted and we have to avenge the Prophet, Hyrum, and whichever Pratt brother was killed in Arkansas because he tried to seduce some guy’s wife. Now, think about where that wagon train was from. Just know that his rhetoric was applied to others than just the army, and was not without consequences. Sometimes we just do not know how people are going to understand what we say.

I probably heard some of those same stories.

I had a comfortable feeling that I understood what happened. Then I watched a documentary called a September Morning. I think that is what it was called. It was a honest effort to put together the events based on research and the gathering of data from the locals.

The official underground story, perhaps one that you heard. That it was Porter Rockwell, the personal bodyguard of Joseph Smith. Rumor had it that he had some horses in Provo that were his prized possession.

The word goes, that the wagon train passing through salt lake City had people who were bragging that they were part of the Hans Mill massacre. They also bragged that they were part of the assassination of Joe Smith. When they went through Provo they poisoned Porter Rockwell's horses. When Porter Rockwell return home a few days later and found his horses dead, he laid pursuit with some others. Some say he killed them all himself, some say he had help. The story was that the part about the Native Americans being part of it was completely made up.

The documentary dispelled some of those theories by connecting people to the events. This train came from a place completely separate from Hans Mill or where Joseph Smith was killed. The pastor, who I think was also the wagon train master, would have had nothing to do with either event. Nor would any of the people in the wagon train. They were just people trying to get to California to start a new life.

According to the documentary, this group had some fine horses that some of the locals in St George area took a shine to. They tried to trade for them but the horses were part of the people's new life. Don't remember if they wanted to start racing horses or what, but these were fine horses.

If you go with the Porter Rockwell version, these people traveling through salt lake City we're bragging that they had raped and murdered Mormons and the Mormon prophet. Some people are perhaps that stupid, but somehow I doubt it these were.

According to the documentary, Brigham Young found out a few days later perhaps even a week later. Johnson's army was just or might have still been in the area. Raising the anger of the army was perhaps part of the motive. According to the documentary, bring him young intentionally set the rumors about the murder of the horses and of them bragging about Hans Mill and the murder of Joseph Smith.

[alas]

My dad had some oral history from someone who participated in the killing. At least I guess, I would sure like to know where the hell he knew some of what he knew. That is the only explanation for some of the things he told my family in about 1957ish (I would have been under 8) when we first visited MMM monument. (Only it wasn’t even much of a monument, just a windswept pile or rocks.) I didn’t realize at the time that he knew stuff that was not in any historical record until after I learned what was in the historical record, and after they dug up the bodies of the men who were shot in the head to add forensics to the historical record. So, I beg to differ with your opinion. I have inside information, that no, I won’t put out for the public, because I have no idea how true it is. But it gives me a different opinion. And it was “riders (plural) from SLC”.

But even going from the historical record, there are others who think B Y incited it. No one that I know of says that specifically that BY said “attack the wagon train,” but just in general saying that outsiders could not be trusted and we have to avenge the Prophet, Hyrum, and whichever Pratt brother was killed in Arkansas because he tried to seduce some guy’s wife. Now, think about where that wagon train was from. Just know that his rhetoric was applied to others than just the army, and was not without consequences. Sometimes we just do not know how people are going to understand what we say.

I probably heard some of those same stories.

I had a comfortable feeling that I understood what happened. Then I watched a documentary called a September Morning. I think that is what it was called. It was a honest effort to put together the events based on research and the gathering of data from the locals.

The official underground story, perhaps one that you heard. That it was Porter Rockwell, the personal bodyguard of Joseph Smith. Rumor had it that he had some horses in Provo that were his prized possession.

The word goes, that the wagon train passing through salt lake City had people who were bragging that they were part of the Hans Mill massacre. They also bragged that they were part of the assassination of Joe Smith. When they went through Provo they poisoned Porter Rockwell's horses. When Porter Rockwell return home a few days later and found his horses dead, he laid pursuit with some others. Some say he killed them all himself, some say he had help. The story was that the part about the Native Americans being part of it was completely made up.

The documentary dispelled some of those theories by connecting people to the events. This train came from a place completely separate from Hans Mill or where Joseph Smith was killed. The pastor, who I think was also the wagon train master, would have had nothing to do with either event. Nor would any of the people in the wagon train. They were just people trying to get to California to start a new life.

According to the documentary, this group had some fine horses that some of the locals in St George area took a shine to. They tried to trade for them but the horses were part of the people's new life. Don't remember if they wanted to start racing horses or what, but these were fine horses.

If you go with the Porter Rockwell version, these people traveling through salt lake City we're bragging that they had raped and murdered Mormons and the Mormon prophet. Some people are perhaps that stupid, but somehow I doubt it these were.

According to the documentary, Brigham Young found out a few days later perhaps even a week later. Johnson's army was just or might have still been in the area. Raising the anger of the army was perhaps part of the motive. According to the documentary, bring him young intentionally set the rumors about the murder of the horses and of them bragging about Hans Mill and the murder of Joseph Smith.

Interesting mixture of rumors. And yes there was stuff he said that he also said was rumor, most likely justification for murder. No to any Porter Rockwell rumors. No to poisoning horses. Yes to rape rumors. No to Hans Mill rumors. Yes to the Franchers stealing cattle from Santiquin??? No to killing the prophet rumors. But yes to the Pratt killing, which was much more likely to be true since the people were geographically from that area, but would not have been for the Prophet’s murder or Hans Mill. But still, I highly doubt it was anything but maybe drunk bragging meant to make Mormons come unglued. Or justification invented after the murder. Other than stuff that can de dismissed as rumor, drunk bragging, or justification for what they did, all of which my dad dismissed as rumor, my dad had details, some that were later confirmed after they dug up the bodies. That is what gets me about some of the other detail he had. If it was just stuff like all of what you heard that isn’t confirmed by history, then no problem. But some of it was confirmed and nothing contradicted the accurate history. But I am saying more than I am really comfortable with. And we have the problem of how old I was when I heard this hearsay. And the source of the hearsay is long dead, so I can’t ask him, where the hell did that come from?

[SaidNobody]

Interesting mixture of rumors.

The facts, or truth, doesn't really matter to me. I realized that I was justifying murder in my heart. I had to believe that if "our people" had murdered 140 people that there must have been a good reason. After I watched the documentary I just felt a heavy sadness. We screwed up. There might have been "high passions" but that is no excuse. It's wasn't like Lord of the Rings and someone slipped and shot the first orc in the neck with an arrow so they attacked and slaughtered them. This was planned, they had time to cool down.

I watched the clips about the people in the wagon train as they were able to find historical documentation. These people were not the hostile mob type people that history depicts. They were just people excited to start a new life.

I can understand hostile feelings because of Johnson's army, and therefore forgive my ancestors, but every time I think of them, I ask those people for forgiveness. They didn't deserve that.

[w2mz]

This is why I think that when RMN says crap like the youth is the “Lord’s Battalion” it really falls flat with the kids today. The kids don’t want to be violent, they want to be accepting and loving. Those old duffers at HC are so stuck in the 50’s though they can’t see how idiotic they sound to young people.

Testosterone levels have dropped to alarming levels in the US. Kids don't want to be loving, they have been socially neutered. Don't mistake hormonal deprivation as kindness.

Ya howdy! You got that right. That’s why I teach my sons to club their sisters and drag them around the house by their hair. My sons are no sissies! They are proud knuckle-dragging testosterone filled cave men like gob intended! They can’t wait to join the lorb’s battalion and fist fight all those devil following heathens!

[SaidNobody]

This is why I think that when RMN says crap like the youth is the “Lord’s Battalion” it really falls flat with the kids today. The kids don’t want to be violent, they want to be accepting and loving. Those old duffers at HC are so stuck in the 50’s though they can’t see how idiotic they sound to young people.

Testosterone levels have dropped to alarming levels in the US. Kids don't want to be loving, they have been socially neutered. Don't mistake hormonal deprivation as kindness.

Ya howdy! You got that right. That’s why I teach my sons to club their sisters and drag them around the house by their hair. My sons are no sissies! They are proud knuckle-dragging testosterone filled cave men like gob intended! They can’t wait to join the lorb’s battalion and fist fight all those devil following heathens!

Howdy Ho, partner.

Your sarcasm is appreciated but perhaps misplaced. I do not know why I am always painted as the barbarian when I point out the finer points of nature.

God is making humans into something more refined, I agree. 20,000 years ago, we were, as you described, knuckle dragging caveman who took a wife with a club. Now we are sophisticated civilized modern men who simply go to the club to get our wives.

The mind/personality has immense power to generate and control hormone levels that once may have been more nature driven. Men were born of such a nature that too take a wife was perhaps second only to eating food.

We can perhaps reduce that with a stronger mind that focuses on reproducing and creating families. We do it more strategically now. But the level of testosterone that has fallen is quite frightening. But besides that, American men simply aren't as interested in being fathers as they once were.

There are still plenty of barbaric men out there who still want to procreate. My point is, that is the testosterone levels drop, the men will stop wanting to procreate. In the women will probably look to those barbaric men that are all too excited to help out.

[w2mz]

Howdy Ho, partner.

Your sarcasm is appreciated but perhaps misplaced. I do not know why I am always painted as the barbarian when I point out the finer points of nature.

I lettered in Sarcasm in high-school and it's probably my only redeeming quality. Thank you for your reply. I wanted to give my perspective again, this time without the crassness.

God is making humans into something more refined, I agree. 20,000 years ago, we were, as you described, knuckle dragging caveman who took a wife with a club. Now we are sophisticated civilized modern men who simply go to the club to get our wives.

If by "God" you mean evolution, then I agree with you. I see no evidence for a supreme god figure with his hand on the controls, but I do see what I consider to be evidence that humans as a species continue to evolve, and that societal norms, education, and structure has helped mankind become more "refined" as time moves forward.

The mind/personality has immense power to generate and control hormone levels that once may have been more nature driven. Men were born of such a nature that too take a wife was perhaps second only to eating food.

I don't doubt this at all. My opinion is that this is not necessarily a negative thing. I'd actually prefer my progeny to live in a more balanced world. If decreased nature driven hormone levels eventually lead to a less aggressive, less warring natured human species, I don't view that as a bad thing.

We can perhaps reduce that with a stronger mind

following but...

that focuses on reproducing and creating families. We do it more strategically now. But the level of testosterone that has fallen is quite frightening. But besides that, American men simply aren't as interested in being fathers as they once were.

here you lost me.
I'm not of the opinion that every human male must procreate or desire to have a family. Not every male is capable of being a responsible father, and it's not just because of lack of testosterone.

There are still plenty of barbaric men out there who still want to procreate. My point is, that is the testosterone levels drop, the men will stop wanting to procreate. In the women will probably look to those barbaric men that are all too excited to help out.

Assuming the males are evolving, I'd like to think the females would evolve accordingly. I would hope that women wouldn't seek out a barbaric male just to procreate, rather, the women should ostracize the barbaric men and that behavior would become obsolete.

[SaidNobody]

of Assuming the males are evolving, I'd like to think the females would evolve accordingly. I would hope that women wouldn't seek out a barbaric male just to procreate, rather, the women should ostracize the barbaric men and that behavior would become obsolete.

I think it might be mildly racist to say that we are more evolved than perhaps Mongolians or people of the Middle East even people from Africa. Many of them are strongly driven to procreate, not respecting social boundaries.

You don't seem to believe in God so I will explain in human terms.

There is a magic that is created when a man loves a woman. The art of chivilery is a practice of empowering the feminine spirit. There is magic between men and women when they are in their element.

We humans send our most evolved people into space. We use our best science and magic to put them in space stations. But without gravity they quickly lose their bone mass. Humans exist because of the stressors and pressures.

Americans are changing because we live in a bubble of safety that belies the natural of our creation. We could live in safely as long as we promote testosterone in socially acceptable ways. But without manliness, we are astronauts losing bone mass.

[moksha]

Testosterone decreasing in an aging population that has increased comorbidities (such as an increase in the incidence of diabetes with age) is to be expected. Examining the role that smartphones and foods like kale, couscous, mochi, and croissants play in all of this would be interesting.

Also, psychological factors such as men calling themselves Proud Boys, and even worse Boogaloo Bois, might be examined as well.

[SaidNobody]

Testosterone decreasing in an aging population that has increased comorbidities (such as an increase in the incidence of diabetes with age) is to be expected. Examining the role that smartphones and foods like kale, couscous, mochi, and croissants play in all of this would be interesting.

Also, psychological factors such as men calling themselves Proud Boys, and even worse Boogaloo Bois, might be examined as well.

Yes. Boogaloo Bois would definitely affect manliness. And eating kale is known as an instant manliness killer. Croissants are on the edge.

This is a huge area of research and I'm sure my little understanding of it is outdated. But the study's null-hypotheses basically state, "Western males have the similar testosterone as to men [say] 100 years ago." I forget when we first were able to test for it, (it wasn't that long ago, involved distilling barrels of pee from manly firemen.) But it failed, in other words, the levels were not nearly the same. Could it be food? I agree with you, yes. But studies show testosterone is and can be produced by doing manly things like hunting, gathering, fighting/protecting, etc. I forget if pursuing females actually helps, but the modern young men are definitely less interested in braving the dangers of relationships with females. With free-streaming porn, it's too easy to ignore that whole realm of complication.

My point is, there is a whole host of physiological issues and psychological issues associated with this problem. Being the barbarian that I am, I suggest we strap some Trump gear on some of the young boys and throw them into a BLM peaceful-protest. Then, we could cure some shit.

[moksha]

I suggest we strap some Trump gear on some of the young boys and throw them into a BLM peaceful-protest.

Having to wear a too-long red tie in a crowd would certainly increase their adrenaline.