Ezra Taft Benson and Conspiracies

[Mormorrisey]

Has anybody listened to the Mormon Stories interview with Matt Harris on ETB and the radical right?

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/e ... is-part-1/
https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/e ... is-part-2/

Now, I'm a historian, so I'm absolutely fascinated by this, so maybe that's why I was really into it, and others might not be. I read the gist of the story some years ago, how ETB tried to shift the church into a radical John Birch Society arm from reading D. Michael Quinn's Extensions of Power, but this was fascinating. The level of detail that Harris researched is outstanding. Harris even turns the story in an epilogue to the current QAnon and radical preppers, the Bundy's, etc. in the church. It's a great story, and Harris is a wonderful storyteller and John does a great job in stepping back his commentary and letting Harris steal the show. It was awesome.

If anybody has about 8 hours to spare to listen to this, I'd love to start a discussion on this - but I'm sure not everybody does. So I'll leave this here, and see if anybody is interested!

[Fifi de la Vergne]

If you don't have 8 hours, or if you want to dip your toes in first, Doug Fabrizio also interviewed the author on a recent episode of Radio West: https://cpa.ds.npr.org/radiowest/audio/ ... 100920.mp3

I've only listened to about the first 2 1/2 hours of the Mormon Stories interview, but I'm hooked. It's fascinating.

[Culper Jr.]

Oh yeah, it's on my list as soon as I have some time. I read a lot about this stuff when I read Greg Prince's book David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. Such a fascinating book. One thing that was really interesting from the book was how the civil rights movement played into his views on communism and blacks getting the priesthood. There were really 2 separate issues with the church regarding blacks; whether they should have the priesthood and whether they should be integrated and have full civil rights. It really complicated the issue.. the way I read it McKay wasn't too opposed to blacks having the priesthood but was opposed to civil rights due to him buying into some of ETB's belief that civil rights were an inroad for communism. Some of the Q15 were opposed to both (Lee, Smith), and some wanted both civil rights and PH for blacks (Brown). ETB really badgered McKay to let him lead the John Birch Society, McKay was always having to balance that and his personal views about communism with Brown's more liberal views and the dogmatism of Lee and Smith. Anyway, really interesting stuff... can't wait to listen to the podcast. I find that time period of church history fascinating as they try to step away from the polygamy underpinnings and re-form and re-brand the church to make it more palatable to what were then modern sensibilities, and how that culture from the 50's influences the culture of the church today.

[moksha]

I watched the first when it came out. Now I need to watch part two.

[Reuben]

One thing that was really interesting from the book was how the civil rights movement played into his views on communism and blacks getting the priesthood. There were really 2 separate issues with the church regarding blacks; whether they should have the priesthood and whether they should be integrated and have full civil rights. It really complicated the issue.. the way I read it McKay wasn't too opposed to blacks having the priesthood but was opposed to civil rights due to him buying into some of ETB's belief that civil rights were an inroad for communism.

The more things change...

Fear of communism is still complicating race issues, especially among a certain segment of conservatives who consider themselves well-informed. For example, Glenn Beck and orbiting commentators, who are very much into the ideas of Skousen and the John Birch Society, talk about a shadowy New World Order that's using BLM to force Marxism on everyone. It's made a lot of people afraid to recognize systemic racism.

IMO, this discussion would be incomplete without acknowledging that communists really were deeply involved in the civil rights movement:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... =123771194

Also, Marxism is involved in BLM, via race-based struggles being framed with critical theory, a philosophy of Western Marxism - a non-totalist, much more benign form of Marxism than the forms used by communist ideologies. But what this segment of conservatives know about it is a sort of "worst of" selection of facts and evidence, so they jump to worrying conclusions.

[Not Buying It]

One thing that was really interesting from the book was how the civil rights movement played into his views on communism and blacks getting the priesthood. There were really 2 separate issues with the church regarding blacks; whether they should have the priesthood and whether they should be integrated and have full civil rights. It really complicated the issue.. the way I read it McKay wasn't too opposed to blacks having the priesthood but was opposed to civil rights due to him buying into some of ETB's belief that civil rights were an inroad for communism.

The more things change...

Fear of communism is still complicating race issues, especially among a certain segment of conservatives who consider themselves well-informed. For example, Glenn Beck and orbiting commentators, who are very much into the ideas of Skousen and the John Birch Society, talk about a shadowy New World Order that's using BLM to force Marxism on everyone. It's made a lot of people afraid to recognize systemic racism.

IMO, this discussion would be incomplete without acknowledging that communists really were deeply involved in the civil rights movement:

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... =123771194

Also, Marxism is involved in BLM, via race-based struggles being framed with critical theory, a philosophy of Western Marxism - a non-totalist, much more benign form of Marxism than the forms used by communist ideologies. But what this segment of conservatives know about it is a sort of "worst of" selection of facts and evidence, so they jump to worrying conclusions.

Haven't listened to the interview, but I already knew President Benson was batcrap crazy. The Church must think so, it has gone to great lengths to hide his 1967 General Conference rant against the Civil Rights movement, "Trust Not in the Arm of Flesh". You used to be able to get a copy through byu.edu, now you can only find it on those weirdo far right wing Mormon webpages. There are some real weirdos who really love that talk though.

I agree that fear of socialism/communism does complicate race issues, people don't realize that some Communists being involved in the Civil Rights movement doesn't mean Civil Rights = Communism any more than some Mormons being Trumpers means Mormonism = Trumpism. Or Marxism = BLM. You can draw a Venn diagram of a couple of different organizations and movements and have substantial overlap without them being equivalent. But President Benson went there, mostly because he was a whack job anyway and it played to his racist tendencies. People like to think he gave up his alarming political views when he became President of the Church, but actually he was pretty out of it for most of that time. Had he been President of the Church when he was 20 years younger, it would have been a real dumpster fire.

[Culper Jr.]

People like to think he gave up his alarming political views when he became President of the Church, but actually he was pretty out of it for most of that time. Had he been President of the Church when he was 20 years younger, it would have been a real dumpster fire.

Yeah, I grew up in the 80's and by that time I only knew him as the kindly old prophet that loved the Book of Mormon. My MIL grew up in Virginia and knew him as her stake president (I think? some kind of leadership position). My wife said it was very challenging for her mom when ETB became the prophet... she was not a fan.

2 hours in to this podcast... so far it's fantastic! Matt Harris is great; very engaging and easy to follow.

[moksha]

I watched the first when it came out. Now I need to watch part two.

Envelop to my forehead: You really enjoyed part two and enthusiastically recommend it to others, right?

How did you know? You are right, but quit reading my mind.

When you consider a parade of pickup trunks cruising Brigham City in support of Trump, you realize that many LDS people are ignoring the teachings of Presidents Nelson-Monson-Hinckley and instead hitching their stars to the John Birchers Ezra Taft Benson and Cleon Skousen. They follow the path of greatest extremism. The Church allowed itself to become Bensonized and it will reap a legacy of dishonest politicians and Bundy-Daybell-Vallow members.

[Mormorrisey]

I watched the first when it came out. Now I need to watch part two.

Envelop to my forehead: You really enjoyed part two and enthusiastically recommend it to others, right?

How did you know? You are right, but quit reading my mind.

When you consider a parade of pickup trunks cruising Brigham City in support of Trump, you realize that many LDS people are ignoring the teachings of Presidents Nelson-Monson-Hinckley and instead hitching their stars to the John Birchers Ezra Taft Benson and Cleon Skousen. They follow the path of greatest extremism. The Church allowed itself to become Bensonized and it will reap a legacy of dishonest politicians and Bundy-Daybell-Vallow members.

Right? And that's Harris's conclusion as well.

Listen, I grew up with this nonsense. Not only was my Mom a narcissist, she also was a Benson conspiracist who forced me to read Skousen's The Naked Communist and Benson's An Enemy Has Done This during my teenage years. Luckily, my HIGH SCHOOL American history class debunked much of what they wrote, so it became clear that this was nonsense. And now my Mom spends all day watching Fox news, thinks Obama is the Anti-Christ, and spouts QAnon bullcrap to anyone who will listen. And by not cracking down on Benson, there are church members who buy into the crap too.

On a related note, did anybody catch what latest religious freedom claptrap Bednar spewed?

"Bednar also pointed out that religious institutions can be a powerful and influential ally in the battle against the pandemic.
Misinformation is a major obstacle in a health crisis,” he said. “Faith communities can debunk rumors, calm fears and facilitate accurate information.”

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA. Because this is exactly what the church has done! What a joke!

[wtfluff]

I keep forgetting that I waded my way through all of these podcasts and...

Well, my mind is a bit blown (again.) I "grew up" during the Benson era. He was the one who "signed" my letter that sent me off to sell his product for two years in a foreign country. Etc. Etc.

I was in such a MORmON bubble, that I knew NOTHING about is craziness until many years later. And many years after that until I found out the real truth. (Just recently. )

It truly is amazing how well COCOL-dS-Inc. was able to train me to ignore reality.

[Mormorrisey]

I keep forgetting that I waded my way through all of these podcasts and...

Well, my mind is a bit blown (again.) I "grew up" during the Benson era. He was the one who "signed" my letter that sent me off to sell his product for two years in a foreign country. Etc. Etc.

I was in such a MORmON bubble, that I knew NOTHING about is craziness until many years later. And many years after that until I found out the real truth. (Just recently. )

It truly is amazing how well COCOL-dS-Inc. was able to train me to ignore reality.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. The fun years were during the time Hugh B Brown and Benson were alive and sniping at each other during General Conference in the 1960s; unless you were alive during those years or even forced to read this crap as I was, I'm sure you wouldn't even know.

My mom was overjoyed when he became the prophet, and a little put off that he didn't regurgitate his Birch society nonsense at every conference talk. I think Harris is correct, that Hinckley and Monson were excellent foils for Benson, and kept the church as an institution more centre/right during those 80s years.

[wtfluff]

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. The fun years were during the time Hugh B Brown and Benson were alive and sniping at each other during General Conference in the 1960s; unless you were alive during those years or even forced to read this crap as I was, I'm sure you wouldn't even know.

My mom was overjoyed when he became the prophet, and a little put off that he didn't regurgitate his Birch society nonsense at every conference talk. I think Harris is correct, that Hinckley and Monson were excellent foils for Benson, and kept the church as an institution more centre/right during those 80s years.

Thanks Steven Patrick.

You have a good point about the 60's. I only caught the very tail end of that decade myself, and gladly my parents didn't force us to read any of that sort of propaganda.

And to the forced reading point: Even though my parents were all-in, True-Blue™, good-to-the-bone COJCOL-dS Mormon, we never strayed from the beaten-path as far as reading and study. It was all just Book of Mormon and correlated manuals. In a way, it's good that I didn't have to delve into the crazy, but it also contributed to that bubble I typed about, which ended up being thick enough to keep me in for more than half a lifetime.

[Hagoth]

I was going to listen on my bike ride this morning, but geez, the first episode is over 5 hours. That's a loooooong ride.

[Hagoth]

IMO, this discussion would be incomplete without acknowledging that communists really were deeply involved in the civil rights movement

Also, Marxism is involved in BLM, via race-based struggles being framed with critical theory, a philosophy of Western Marxism - a non-totalist, much more benign form of Marxism than the forms used by communist ideologies. But what this segment of conservatives know about it is a sort of "worst of" selection of facts and evidence, so they jump to worrying conclusions.

That's a great point. Benson and others claimed that evil commies were remotely orchestrating every move of Black Americans, who obviously lack the capacity to think for themselves, as pawns for a takeover by yet another white supremacist regime, as if there can't be such a thing as an intentional black communist. But the communism we're talking about here was really about horribly oppressed people looking for a system that would help them survive and progress in a society (one nation under God... liberty for all) that had utterly failed them. But playing the Reds under the beds card has always worked brilliantly to distract people from the actual, human suffering of actual, human people.

BTW, here's a fun little exercise that I made the mistake of doing once: bring up the topic of United-Order-is-Communism in an alt-Right leaning Elders Quorum and sit back and enjoy the comedic meltdown.

[1smartdodog]

A little craziness would he fun as opposed to the lethargic monotone voices we get to listen to now.


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[græy]

My TBM MIL is coming completely unhinged watching the current election play out. For four years she has been holding on to the delusion that Trump is the savior of American democracy and the constitution as a whole. Somehow, she completely disregards all of Trump's attempts to undermine the validity of democratic votes and his recent efforts to completely halt the election right in the middle of counting so that he appears to win. All of which is in direct contradiction to the spirit and letter of the law as written in said constitution.

She was converted to the church during Benson's reign and is thoroughly steeped in that dogma. She sees the world falling apart as our nation is infiltrated by socialism and communism and our morals are eroded by liberals and sinners. She has latched on to Benson's teachings to explain what she believes is happening around her. She also holds Trump as the one to whom JS was supposedly referring to in the White Horse prophecy. Therefore, it is our duty as mormons to support him, failings and all, with our vote - to preserve the constitution and the integrity of our morals. Never mind the fact that Trump has neither integrity nor morals and that Benson was more than a little bit off his rocker.

[Not Buying It]

My TBM MIL is coming completely unhinged watching the current election play out. For four years she has been holding on to the delusion that Trump is the savior of American democracy and the constitution as a whole. Somehow, she completely disregards all of Trump's attempts to undermine the validity of democratic votes and his recent efforts to completely halt the election right in the middle of counting so that he appears to win. All of which is in direct contradiction to the spirit and letter of the law as written in said constitution.

She was converted to the church during Benson's reign and is thoroughly steeped in that dogma. She sees the world falling apart as our nation is infiltrated by socialism and communism and our morals are eroded by liberals and sinners. She has latched on to Benson's teachings to explain what she believes is happening around her. She also holds Trump as the one to whom JS was supposedly referring to in the White Horse prophecy. Therefore, it is our duty as mormons to support him, failings and all, with our vote - to preserve the constitution and the integrity of our morals. Never mind the fact that Trump has neither integrity nor morals and that Benson was more than a little bit off his rocker.

The farther I get from the craziness of Mormonism the more amazed I am I was so caught up in it for so long. It shouldn't have taken as long as it did to see what a messed up system it is in so many ways.

Thing about it for a minute - you've got a former strip club and casino owner with multiple wives and affairs and sexual assault allegations who says something unapologetically un-Christlike pretty much every time he opens his damn mouth - who has overwhelming support from LDS Church members. My former stake president is flying a Trump flag in front of his house. But what do you expect from a Church that taught its members to venerate a teenager screwing conman just because he was the guy who started said Church?

My point is this - most people are panicky, illogical creatures who will use all kinds of other parts of their bodies to make decisions before they use their brains. But members of the Church are even worse because on top of being as irrational as the rest of humanity, they are taught nonsense and taught to never question it, are taught never to think too deeply about the implications of anything they are taught, are taught to think they know everything and that everyone outside the Church is always wrong, and are taught a topsy-turvy moral code that condemns young women for baring shoulders and excuses its founder for pressuring young girls into sex. Viewed from that context, its no wonder they go for a nonsensical morally topsy-turvy leader like Trump, they've been uniquely conditioned to buy into his brand of morally ambiguous nonsense.

[deacon blues]

I listened to the Doug Fabrizio podcast. It convinced me to go buy Matt Harris's book. There are some many different tunnels in the "rabbit hole."