Rasband's Face-to-Face

[græy]

At the recent Face-to-Face with Elder/Sister Rasband, a rare gem of a question was asked.

A youth speaker, Harry, questioned:

I have serious problems with the truth claims of the church and am considering removing my name from the records of the church. Can you give me a reason why I should stay?

Elder Rasband's response (May not be 100% word for word):

I can't wait to talk to Harry about the reasons why he should stay. The first thing I want to say to you and others who might be on the edge is - Don't you do it. Don't remove your name from the records of the church. Maybe it would help to rephrase your question this way... not as "why I should stay?" but perhaps the more positive approach of "why I and so many others choose to stay including, I would suspect, hundreds of thousands of you watching this broadcast tonight. Think of it as "Why do I choose to stay?"

Cue Sister Rasband introducing a video of a college athlete suffering from depression, who joins the church which only kind of helps. Then as he is really considering suicide a kind act from a random (likely non-member) person changes his perspective and now he's all better! And on top of that, he has a hot new wife!

How on Earth is that supposed to be ANY kind of answer? I am struggling with finding any reason to believe the church is what it claims to be, why should I even be here? And his answer is to not address any degree of concern, but just to stay anyway, and then find a reason after-the-fact to support that choice? And what is up with the video about the college athlete? I'm glad he found something that is working to address his depression, but there is not one thought, statement, or even a nod to addressing a fundamental concern regarding the church's truth claims. This was a non-answer and probably the least helpful thing he could do or say to someone who is really struggling. Apostle and representative of Jesus Christ my a**!

After seeing the video clip my DW turned to me and said, "That was a really powerful video." How could she miss the fact that they didn't even attempt to address the concerns of the young man? They basically just said don't worry about it, just stay, you'll be able to justify it to yourself after you've finished your mission, married in the temple, had 4 kids, and paid hundreds of thousands in tithing dollars - now watch this uplifting but unrelated video!

end rant

edit: A link to the specific question - https://youtu.be/D-E2LOqDTtA?t=1769

[alas]

Maybe what he was trying to say was applying “why not commit suicide” to “why stay in the church”. I used to give my depressed clients that kind of answer to why not kill yourself. Well because one year from now you will be glad you are still here. But the answer for the church DOES NOT WORK. You get over depression, the church doesn’t get over being fake.

I mean, I could guarantee my clients that if they get on anti depressants, (but you have to find the right one because some work better for some people,) and stick with counseling, (Same with Meds, if I don’t work for them find a different counselor who does) they WILL feel like living after they get through this bad spot.

But what is going to change with the church. It will still use shame to control and that is abusive. It will still have a foundation based on JS’s fraud. It will still be demanding of your time. It will still be more expensive than most churches. It will still be racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and change resistant. It will still be controlling.

It is more like staying with an abusive husband than staying alive. Or staying with the most expensive and poorest service cell phone company.

So, face it, Rasband, there is no good reason for staying in the church. I mean come on, if you can’t do better than that, it is because there is no reason.

[Phil Lurkerman]

I've come to the conclusion that faith and religious belief - no matter what the specific faith denomination - are based almost entirely on emotion. Those who are comfortable with emotion as a basis for belief are much less affected by shaky truth claims and strange, unsupportable history. Those things just don't matter if feelings are your basis for "knowing" truth.

As for why Rasband and others steer away from a discussion of concerns about truth claims and challenging historical issues, there just isn't anything left to say. We are all familiar here with the failings of apologetic efforts and no modern GA is likely to get involved in the details of such a losing effort. The official essays are a great example of the limits of a rational approach. From a retention metrics perspective, emotional appeals and pragmatic benefits are a much better bet.

[græy]

I've come to the conclusion that faith and religious belief - no matter what the specific faith denomination - are based almost entirely on emotion. Those who are comfortable with emotion as a basis for belief are much less affected by shaky truth claims and strange, unsupportable history. Those things just don't matter if feelings are your basis for "knowing" truth.

Utility vs Validity.

[græy]

Maybe what he was trying to say was applying “why not commit suicide” to “why stay in the church”. I used to give my depressed clients that kind of answer to why not kill yourself. Well because one year from now you will be glad you are still here. But the answer for the church DOES NOT WORK. You get over depression, the church doesn’t get over being fake.

...

So, face it, Rasband, there is no good reason for staying in the church. I mean come on, if you can’t do better than that, it is because there is no reason.

Well said, Alas

[Phil Lurkerman]

I've come to the conclusion that faith and religious belief - no matter what the specific faith denomination - are based almost entirely on emotion. Those who are comfortable with emotion as a basis for belief are much less affected by shaky truth claims and strange, unsupportable history. Those things just don't matter if feelings are your basis for "knowing" truth.

Utility vs Validity.

Yup

[Red Ryder]

Heart Sell

I find it telling they discussed this up front. Shows they have an issue with the youth who must be removing their records when they turn 18 or head off to college.

The church needs to be overhauled to stay relevant in 2020.

They’ve become the Cleveland Browns trying to run the same plays with the same old players wondering why they get tackled for a 6 yard loss.

[Not Buying It]

Pfft. What a surprise - Elder Rasband brought up a serious issue and dealt with it by not dealing with it - misdirection, appeal to emotion, anything but answering the question head on. "Why do I choose to stay?" Like that is the least bit persuasive to someone who is really considering leaving due to Joseph Smith's teenage wives, bogus Book of Abraham translations, systematic official racism in the Church until 1978 and unofficial after that, Book of Mormon anachronisms, lack of any kind of prophecy from prophets, etc. and etc. ad infinitum.

Because he isn't really trying to persuade anyone who has "serious problems with the truth claims of the church and am considering removing my name from the records of the church" - his answer is wholly inadequate to resolve the concerns of someone in that situation. He is really trying to persuade those who don't have serious problems that there aren't serious problems. He's not really going after the one - he's trying to make the 99 think there was no reason for the one to think about leaving.

[Reuben]

Maybe what he was trying to say was applying “why not commit suicide” to “why stay in the church”. I used to give my depressed clients that kind of answer to why not kill yourself. Well because one year from now you will be glad you are still here. But the answer for the church DOES NOT WORK. You get over depression, the church doesn’t get over being fake.

From his perspective, it's totally a thing you get over. Maybe a mental illness, maybe purely a spiritual one. Because, you know, if you can't get on board, it's your fault, period.

Regardless of who's right, he's critically underestimating how much it wears on you to just stick it out when 25% of everything everyone says at church registers as demonstrably false and 50% registers as unfalsifiable bullshit, and you constantly detect a liberal cross-category sprinkling of worshipping the church and its leaders and members. He can't see activity in the church being like that, and if he could, he would never feel it in his bones.

They all could sure as hell try for once, though.

[Mormorrisey]

We watched it in the Mormorrisey house, and it was actually the question before that exchange you mention graey, that got one of my kids all riled up - the question was essentially about sometimes questioning and disagreeing with what was being taught in church, and how you deal with those feelings? My kid said, "now that's a good question!" and listened intently for the answer. Which essentially was, "just follow the prophets." So a non-answer, as I expected. My kid was NOT pleased, and stated so.

So after the broadcast, we had an hour long discussion about why. So I asked for about 10 minutes, to give some historical context in a lovely lecture. So I gave them the Hugh B. Brown quote about informed dissent (For those interested: https://saveccnz.wordpress.com/2015/02/ ... d-dissent/) and told them how this slowly evolved over the years, into ETB's fourteen fundamentals (I won't link that, for you benefit) and now we're at the point where there is no "loyal opposition" (Oaks) and this non-answer by Rasband. So my kid says, "and Hugh B Brown was a member of the FIRST PRESIDENCY when he said this? That's crazy." And so I said, "but you understand why they give that answer now, right? Because they are invested in the idea that prophets can do no wrong, when the internet is very clear they HAVE been wrong. It's a very modern church problem."

To Sis. M's credit, she stayed largely silent during this discussion, where two of my kids expressed themselves and we just left it, and the missus didn't even castigate me for ruining the broadcast for her. It's becoming very clear to her that ALL of my adult kids have minds of their own, it hasn't been my influence at all that have led them to where they are, and they just don't agree with her more fundamentalist views, and I can see her slowly mellowing out from her literal TBM-ness as a result.

But that's the rub, of the problem in this broadcast, isn't it? Clearly to Rasband there is NO reason for disagreeing with prophets, and clearly that's the road to apostasy to the leaders of the church. Just so tone deaf for not only people like us, but to young people, who are NOT just going to throw their gay friends under the bus because "prophets say so." They have no clue, no answers for the millennial/Gen Z exodus, and it's only going to get worse.

[jfro18]

What's even more amazing to me is that Rasband is clearly reading the answer off a tablet, and yet that's still the best they can do.

It's crazy... Sis Rasband's answer after the video and discussion of sealing is not much better as she bashes looking at anti-Mormon material.

But yeah - they know they can't talk about these issues without alerting more members to the problems, so they can't possibly attempt to answer them in a public setting but they also know that so many are struggling that they have to publicly address it in some way.

[Mackman]

I think its funny because they have no clue how to deal with these problems !!!! Same ole Bullshit. Just admit it, its all made up , its fake !!!!!!! Fake news , fake church everything today is fake even Donald Trump .

[MoPag]

Rasband? Really? That's who they are sending to talk to the kids?

They have no clue, no answers for the millennial/Gen Z exodus, and it's only going to get worse.

^^^100% THIS!!!

[wtfluff]

Let's re-frame the question.

Or in other words: You're asking the wrong question.

Why don't they just post a list of "Approved Questions?" They're obviously following a script, It would make things slightly easier for the old, out-of-touch kooks to follow said script.

Makes me wonder if I had seen this type of scripted BS when I was a believer in the target audience; Would have seen through it?

[wtfluff]

Let's re-frame the question.

Or in other words: You're asking the wrong question.

Why don't they just post a list of "Approved Questions?" They're obviously following a script, It would make things slightly easier for the old, out-of-touch kooks to follow said script.

Makes me wonder if I had seen this type of scripted BS when I was a believer in the target audience; Would have seen through it?

Edit: P.S. What the hell is the set they recorded this on? Did they say anything about it? (I'm NOT going to go watch the video myself, as I'm pretty sure some NoMMie will know the answer.)

[Mormorrisey]

Let's re-frame the question.

Or in other words: You're asking the wrong question.

Why don't they just post a list of "Approved Questions?" They're obviously following a script, It would make things slightly easier for the old, out-of-touch kooks to follow said script.

Makes me wonder if I had seen this type of scripted BS when I was a believer in the target audience; Would have seen through it?

Edit: P.S. What the hell is the set they recorded this on? Did they say anything about it? (I'm NOT going to go watch the video myself, as I'm pretty sure some NoMMie will know the answer.)

Ask, and ye shall receive.

It was held at the church's Jerusalem set on the lot at the Goshen studio.

[wtfluff]

Edit: P.S. What the hell is the set they recorded this on? Did they say anything about it? (I'm NOT going to go watch the video myself, as I'm pretty sure some NoMMie will know the answer.)

Ask, and ye shall receive.

It was held at the church's Jerusalem set on the lot at the Goshen studio.

Interesting. Since everything about COJCOLdS-Inc. is fake, why not have the big face-to-face shindig on a fake set to make the fake-ness of the entire thing even more fake?

Definitely "Legit" as the kiddos say...

[nibbler]

I watched the first two or three questions then tuned out once it became clear that it was just going to be more of the same.

After seeing the video clip my DW turned to me and said, "That was a really powerful video." How could she miss the fact that they didn't even attempt to address the concerns of the young man?

Heartsell. It's designed to be emotionally manipulative. It makes people associate the issue with an emotional high that the video is carefully crafted to give people. The video had nothing to do with the question but the discomfort you felt from that question was replaced by a good feeling and that's what sticks with you.

(paraphrasing) The first question was what to do when you disagree with the prophets. The answer was the prophets are right, implying you're wrong for disagreeing. I'd love some followup questions. "If prophets are always right and are always the most in-touch person in the world, was civil rights a communist plot? Are interracial marriages still punishable by death?" No? Listen to the current prophet? What if I disagreed with ETB when he was a prophet? How is that different from disagreeing with Nelson today?

The second question in the OP. Rasband doesn't use very sound logic, you could apply, "Why do other people stay?" to any group. Taking it to an extreme to illustrate my point, why should I stay in Jonestown? That's not the question you should ask, a more positive question might be why do so many others choose to stay in Jonestown?

Softening it a little, I'm glad Fulano de Tal has his reasons to stay but Fulano's reasons for staying are just that, Fulano's reasons. I don't need Fulano's reasons, I need a reason for myself.

Why to stay is and issue I personally struggle with. Each year it gets harder and harder to justify staying. Forget the history, forget the truth claims, what practical thing does the church offer? It seems like all we ever talk about at church is how true the church is. It feels like most of the culture's collective energy is spent validating truth claims and propping up leaders. The end result is that church is all about worshiping the church. We hardly ever talk about living good principles anymore. We hardly ever do anything relevant to everyday life. It's a never ending loyalty test to feed a bottomless pit of insecurity.

Another reason given for staying was to not break the chain of generations that are sealed together, aka we've got your family hostage. This one always felt manipulative. If the church were good on its own merits they wouldn't have to resort to so much manipulation to get people to stay.

[Linked]

I have serious problems with the truth claims of the church and am considering removing my name from the records of the church. Can you give me a reason why I should stay?

Elder Rasband's response (May not be 100% word for word):

I can't wait to talk to Harry about the reasons why he should stay. The first thing I want to say to you and others who might be on the edge is - Don't you do it. Don't remove your name from the records of the church. Maybe it would help to rephrase your question this way... not as "why I should stay?" but perhaps the more positive approach of "why I and so many others choose to stay including, I would suspect, hundreds of thousands of you watching this broadcast tonight. Think of it as "Why do I choose to stay?"

Because he isn't really trying to persuade anyone who has "serious problems with the truth claims of the church and am considering removing my name from the records of the church" - his answer is wholly inadequate to resolve the concerns of someone in that situation. He is really trying to persuade those who don't have serious problems that there aren't serious problems. He's not really going after the one - he's trying to make the 99 think there was no reason for the one to think about leaving.

I think this is the crux of it, and honestly it is the best answer they have. Once someone doesn't believe the truth claims of the church then the church has lost most of their power to control that person. So they take the question and answer it in a way that helps the believers reaffirm their belief. Getting the believers to self-indoctrinate is the main goal of every lesson plan. That's where all the leading questions lead. And that's what this does. It provides a space for believers to reaffirm their belief and that they "choose" it. Also that they are right, along with all their fellow believers. How uplifting.

[Just This Guy]

Elder Rasband's response (May not be 100% word for word):

I can't wait to talk to Harry about the reasons why he should stay. The first thing I want to say to you and others who might be on the edge is - Don't you do it. Don't remove your name from the records of the church. Maybe it would help to rephrase your question this way...

This is a typical move by the church. If you ask a question that they can't or don't want to answer, then their response is replay "You are asking the wrong question. Let me tell you what question you should ask."

We saw it with Oaks in the fireside for teens a couple years ago. We see it here. We see it in plenty of other places where the truth to the question that was really asked would go against the church's policy of hiding the unpleasant facts. They don't realize that is this doubly insulting to the person asking the question. Not only are they not getting their question answered, they are being called stupid for not asking the 'right' questions.