New Mormon Stories/RFM interview with Egyptologist Robert Ritner

[Rob4Hope]

The shifts in church doctrine make me wonder how easily people, Including myself in this, can be swayed by authority and charisma. After listening to this podcast (which was FANTASTIC bye-the-way), I have wondered about JS and the early brethren.

Those men were dangerous people, for several reasons:
1. Their was an authority they commanded in the way they talked, interacted with others, and the sureness they must have commanded with their doctrines.
2. They were fully committed themselves, probably to a state of fanaticism.
3. They were willing to back up their choices and actions, even to the point of "blood atonement".

I mean, think about these guys...a group of Jim Jones, all combined to lead, and those who didn't follow were destroyed.

And in a more modern rift, why, when I think about these early leaders, do I find my mind quickly swinging to men like Oaks and Bednar?

[Hagoth]

Whoa, there's another episode coming. Monumental.

[jfro18]

Whoa, there's another episode coming. Monumental.

I was under the impression there might be more than one more to go... I think they're going to cover the manuscripts, the GAEL, and the apologetics still.

They could of course wrap it up one episode, but considering they're inviting Gee and Muehlstein to participate this could be a little longer of a series... not that Gee is EVER going to go on a show with his former mentor as much as I'd kill to see it.

[Hagoth]

not that Gee is EVER going to go on a show with his former mentor as much as I'd kill to see it.

It really doesn't seem like that much to ask from people whose purpose in life is to defend the truth, does it? Running away from such a wonderful missionary opportunity might suggest that what they are defending is something less than truth. It's fascinating how much we admire bold, fearless confrontations from our scripture heroes, while not being surprised at the hasty retreats we witness in real life.

[Yobispo]

not that Gee is EVER going to go on a show with his former mentor as much as I'd kill to see it.

It really doesn't seem like that much to ask from people whose purpose in life is to defend the truth, does it? Running away from such a wonderful missionary opportunity might suggest that what they are defending is something less than truth. It's fascinating how much we admire bold, fearless confrontations from our scripture heroes, while not being surprised at the hasty retreats we witness in real life.

This point needs to be made over and over. These guys want a podium so they can “proclaim truth”, ok, here’s a podium. Start proclaiming guys.

[blazerb]

They could of course wrap it up one episode, but considering they're inviting Gee and Muehlstein to participate this could be a little longer of a series... not that Gee is EVER going to go on a show with his former mentor as much as I'd kill to see it.

Did they really make personal contact with Gee or Muehlstein, or is the invitation in an open letter, so to speak?

I can't imagine the church giving permission for anyone to engage with Dr. Ritner. Dr. Ritner will win that debate without a doubt.

[jfro18]

Did they really make personal contact with Gee or Muehlstein, or is the invitation in an open letter, so to speak?

I can't imagine the church giving permission for anyone to engage with Dr. Ritner. Dr. Ritner will win that debate without a doubt.

They sent emails to Gee and Muehlstein so it's official contact but Dehlin also posted the email which is a much more public callout.

[Mormorrisey]

Wow, just listened to part 2 - as a cultural historian, this was fascinating to me. Great job, all!

There's no way on this earth, after what happened in these two episodes, and presumably what will happen in the third episode, that Muhlestein and Gee will show up to this academic standoff. Not a chance.

The line of the podcast, to Michael Rhodes: "You owe me a footnote, and an apology." Priceless.

Last question for anybody listening - they keep saying they will come back to who asked Dr. Ritner to look at the BOA, have they answered that question yet, and I've missed it? That's the story I'm looking for.

[jfro18]

Last question for anybody listening - they keep saying they will come back to who asked Dr. Ritner to look at the BOA, have they answered that question yet, and I've missed it? That's the story I'm looking for.

I don't think they did, although I think Ritner said in the first part that he was asked because of his association with Gee? I could be wrong on that though - it's 7 hours of podcast all blending together a bit.

There's no chance in hell Gee or Muehlstein are going to come out to talk to Ritner if they were too afraid to do that with regards to Brian Hauglid and RFM. No way.

[jfro18]

The third and final part is up - 5.5 hours long to finish!

I have only listened to the first 30-45 minutes though but it's got some good details in there already to follow-up on points from the previous two podcasts:

https://www.mormonstories.org/podcast/robert-ritner/

[blazerb]

I have started listening to part 3. I'm only about 1.5 hours in. I have to pace myself. If I listen too long, I just begin to hear, "It was all bulls**t. It was all bulls**t." When I listen in smaller chunks, the Egyptology is incredible. If anyone is not into Egyptology, the whole thing can be summed up with the observation of Theodule Deveria that JS's explanation was "rambling nonsense," quoted at the 56:30 mark in part 3.

[moksha]

Pssst, I think RFM is planning an upcoming episode with Kerry Shirts. Pass it on.

[hmb]

I had to laugh at the comments about having to listen to "something "anti-mormon" alone. That's what it's like for me to listen to CNN or MSNBC. I have to do it alone. I have a hearing impairment (hopefully temporary) so I have to blast it loud enough to hear. It doesn't go over well. I know that has nothing to do with the topic, but it struck me as funny.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Does anyone want to take a stab at listing new or groundbreaking comments made during the series? For me I think it was mostly known info with extra ball busting of the apologetic arguments. The Anubis printing plate jackal snout removal thing was new to me.

I haven't hit the portion where they thrash the Olishem argument yet.

[Hagoth]

Does anyone want to take a stab at listing new or groundbreaking comments made during the series? For me I think it was mostly known info with extra ball busting of the apologetic arguments. The Anubis printing plate jackal snout removal thing was new to me.

I haven't hit the portion where they thrash the Olishem argument yet.

I think the most significant part of this interview is when it becomes so obvious that John Gee (and Muhlestien by association) is being intentionally deceptive. Ritner doesn't do it in any kind of ad hominem way, he just tells it how it is. One thing he does point out is that Ritner sees no monetary upside for his work with the BoA, whereas Gee is paid full time by the church just to defend the BoA. Ritner saves up his pennies to go to conferences while the church uses your tithing dollars to jet Gee all over the globe, and pays him in salary and expenses to attend. It becomes obviously how completely Gee is locked into his incredibly narrow niche of defending the BoA at all costs, for both his reputation and his vocation, neither of which would have any value outside of the church. If he had to look for employment elsewhere he might as well consider attending McDonald's Hamburger University (my words, not Dr. Ritner's).

[consiglieri]

Does anyone want to take a stab at listing new or groundbreaking comments made during the series? For me I think it was mostly known info with extra ball busting of the apologetic arguments. The Anubis printing plate jackal snout removal thing was new to me.

I haven't hit the portion where they thrash the Olishem argument yet.

Incredibly, John Gee himself thrashes the Olishem theory in a PGP Central video posted just last Friday.

Seriously.

He says he does not think it the same place mentioned in the BOA!

[consiglieri]

And yet Gee was on the committee responsible for the inclusion of Olishem as an evidence the BOA is true in the church essay.

These are deep waters.

[jfro18]

Does anyone want to take a stab at listing new or groundbreaking comments made during the series? For me I think it was mostly known info with extra ball busting of the apologetic arguments. The Anubis printing plate jackal snout removal thing was new to me.

I haven't hit the portion where they thrash the Olishem argument yet.

Incredibly, John Gee himself thrashes the Olishem theory in a PGP Central video posted just last Friday.

Seriously.

He says he does not think it the same place mentioned in the BOA!

I listened to part of that Gee PGP video while I was grocery shopping... the part about Olishem was so jarring to me because Gee starts out by citing it as evidence for the Book of Abraham and ends by saying the people are in the wrong place but that the idea that it's real gives him more faith.

I can't understand how that would help ANYONE have faith in the Book of Abraham. It would be like me saying that I believed in Bigfoot and even though I knew the videos were doctored, the idea of the videos being real gives me more faith in Bigfoot.

Just crazy the way he delivered that answe.

[Mormorrisey]

So I finally finished listening, and it was a long, long slog. But very worth it and entertaining - but I'm not entirely sure it was "new" information, Ritner's written work has been around a long time, and most of what he was saying was from his written work. As as even Ritner himself said multiple times, Egyptologists since the late 1850s have shown that what Joseph "translated" had nothing to do with what was actually on the papyri. So I'm not sure that it was "new," per se. The one bit of information I did not know before, was the problem of the lead/woodcut picture of Facsimile 3 that Rueben Hedlock carved, that showed Anubis's beak carved out in the original. That I did not know. But most of the information I've read in other places, especially Ritner's work.

However, I found fascinating the last couple of hours of the 3rd part of the podcast, and the challenges that Ritner had with Gee's approach; not only to the BOA, but with Gee's apologetics in general. And why wouldn't he? Gee has tried to screw around with Ritner's reputation since 2002. And as we've seen with Gee's work attacking ANYBODY who has the temerity to disagree with him, including Brian Hauglid (according to RFM's interview), it's an approach that has enraged everybody except those who agree with him. And to me, that's what comes shining through this interview, and why Ritner has such an axe to grind with his former student. How anyone can take Gee seriously is beyond me, with not only his lack of solid scholarship, his deceptions and his rather grating personality, but his attacks on serious scholars.

And it is a different approach than, say, Muhlestein has to BOA apologetics - as Hauglid said in his interview, at least Muhlestein is honest and upfront with starting his approach with the truthfulness of the BOA, and then researching evidence that try to prove it. Whatever one thinks of the validity and/or stupidity of this approach, with continual hammering of square pegs into round holes, at least it's transparent. Which Gee has been anything but in his backhanded attacks on legitimate scholars, and even his sniping at the Givens/Bushmans of Mormonism and their "intellectually unstable" position of the catalyst theory. No wonder Ritner spent nearly half the interview outlining Gee's many transgressions to him personally.

So the big part I took away, is that Gee seems to be as big of a jerkwad as I imagined him being.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Someone posted a comment with the paragraph on "honesty" from gospel principles on Gee's video. [emoji1]