If I could ask them one question . . . Come Follow Me, Lesson 16

[annotatedbom]

For Come Follow Me, lesson 16, April 20-26, Mosiah 4-6

If I wanted to encourage thought and try to understand devout believers better, I might ask:

“So, without LDS priesthood ordinances, a person does not have moral or spiritual power?”

Click here to see the Things to consider for this lesson.

Enjoy!
A-Bom

[Hagoth]

For one thing, we have to be careful to distinguish between the Gift of the Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ. Everyone has the Light of Christ, but the prophets have told us that its main purpose is to provide just enough course correction in peoples' lives to eventually lead them into the Oneandonlytrue church, where all of the Good Stuff is hiding out. Joseph Fielding Smith said, “if a man who has never heard the gospel will hearken to the teachings and manifestations of the Spirit of Christ… it will lead him eventually to the fullness of the gospel (i.e. the LDS church),” and Harold B. Lee said, “Every one of you born into this world enjoys the blessing of this Light that shall never cease to strive with you until you are led to that further light from the gift of the Holy Ghost that may be received only upon condition of repentance and baptism into the Kingdom of God (i.d. the LDS church).”

Get in the church, get the special ordinances, get the priesthood in your home and you will be a real person in God's eyes. Pinocchio couldn't be a real boy until he got the Aaronic priesthood so he could pass a tray of bread with God's sanction.

It seems to me that the main purpose of organizations like the LDS church is to perpetuate themselves by creating an us/them, inside/outside dichotomy between its members and the rest of the world, a sense of superiority for being numbered among God's Chosen People, and showing their admiration and devotion to God's chosen mouthpieces. There is a lot of talk about loving and accepting other people, but when the rubber hits the road we all know who gets the big castle in the sky. When I see how arrogant and dismissive some members of the church are toward other faith traditions and religious scholarship I just have to remind myself that they are just demonstrating the single most essential lesson you must learn to be a true Mormon. From inside the world view they are not being arrogant or dismissive at all, they are demonstrating gratitude that they have been blessed enough to be able to see the light in a world of darkness.

[Exiled]

For one thing, we have to be careful to distinguish between the Gift of the Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ. Everyone has the Light of Christ, but the prophets have told us that its main purpose is to provide just enough course correction in peoples' lives to eventually lead them into the Oneandonlytrue church, where all of the Good Stuff is hiding out. Joseph Fielding Smith said, “if a man who has never heard the gospel will hearken to the teachings and manifestations of the Spirit of Christ… it will lead him eventually to the fullness of the gospel (i.e. the LDS church),” and Harold B. Lee said, “Every one of you born into this world enjoys the blessing of this Light that shall never cease to strive with you until you are led to that further light from the gift of the Holy Ghost that may be received only upon condition of repentance and baptism into the Kingdom of God (i.d. the LDS church).”

Get in the church, get the special ordinances, get the priesthood in your home and you will be a real person in God's eyes. Pinocchio couldn't be a real boy until he got the Aaronic priesthood so he could pass a tray of bread with God's sanction.

It seems to me that the main purpose of organizations like the LDS church is to perpetuate themselves by creating an us/them, inside/outside dichotomy between its members and the rest of the world, a sense of superiority for being numbered among God's Chosen People, and showing their admiration and devotion to God's chosen mouthpieces. There is a lot of talk about loving and accepting other people, but when the rubber hits the road we all know who gets the big castle in the sky. When I see how arrogant and dismissive some members of the church are toward other faith traditions and religious scholarship I just have to remind myself that they are just demonstrating the single most essential lesson you must learn to be a true Mormon. From inside the world view they are not being arrogant or dismissive at all, they are demonstrating gratitude that they have been blessed enough to be able to see the light in a world of darkness.

We all see this. Now try telling the good folks over at sic et non that humble superiority underlies mormonism and watch them freak out.

[Palerider]

Just a note on the Holy Ghost.

One may recall that Simon, the magician attempted to purchase the power to do miracles and bestow the Holy Ghost upon people when he saw Peter and John lay hands upon the previously baptized Samaritans. Peter said essentially, "Your money perish with you..." if you think you can buy the power of God.

And even though the laying on of hands was one way of God giving the Holy Ghost it wasn't the only way. (References can be provided)

In other words it was never considered an "ordinance". Being "Born again" was an experience....followed by a process of sanctification. Without the proper tone or change of heart any ordinance is useless anyway.

Further, just as the power of giving the gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be bought or purchased, neither can it be withheld for money or ransom. It is the free gift of God.

Therefore you may know that any church that requires a commitment of money before you may receive that free gift is not of God and doesn't truly have your salvation as it's priority and purpose of existence.

[moksha]

Pinocchio couldn't be a real boy until he got the Aaronic priesthood so he could pass a tray of bread with God's sanction.

This could be a perennial Church favorite if they can secure production rights from Disney Studios. Gepetto sounds a bit too ethnic for Utah, so perhaps the woodcarver's name will be changed to Eric. Being Mormon, Eric will be married to Emily and they will already have seven children before Pinocchio is assembled at Eric's engineering design company in American Fork.

Once Aaronicized, Pinocchio's circuits will be closer to God than Emily.

[Hagoth]

Further, just as the power of giving the gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be bought or purchased, neither can it be withheld for money or ransom. It is the free gift of God.

I love that thought, Palerider. I blessed the sacrament yesterday for Mrs. Hagoth. She said something about the people who don't have someone in their home who can do that. I reminded her that I think ANYONE can do that. You don't have to earn permission. That totally destroys Jesus' message.

[annotatedbom]

When I see how arrogant and dismissive some members of the church are toward other faith traditions and religious scholarship I just have to remind myself that they are just demonstrating the single most essential lesson you must learn to be a true Mormon. From inside the world view they are not being arrogant or dismissive at all, they are demonstrating gratitude that they have been blessed enough to be able to see the light in a world of darkness.

This^
And, I have to remind myself continually that I still have this innate tendency to arrogantly and dismissively be grateful that I'm fortunate enough to be more enlightened than most around me. I mean, it's not easy being as enlightened as I am

[annotatedbom]

Just a note on the Holy Ghost.

One may recall that Simon, the magician attempted to purchase the power to do miracles and bestow the Holy Ghost upon people when he saw Peter and John lay hands upon the previously baptized Samaritans. Peter said essentially, "Your money perish with you..." if you think you can buy the power of God.

And even though the laying on of hands was one way of God giving the Holy Ghost it wasn't the only way. (References can be provided)

In other words it was never considered an "ordinance". Being "Born again" was an experience....followed by a process of sanctification. Without the proper tone or change of heart any ordinance is useless anyway.

Further, just as the power of giving the gift of the Holy Spirit cannot be bought or purchased, neither can it be withheld for money or ransom. It is the free gift of God.

Therefore you may know that any church that requires a commitment of money before you may receive that free gift is not of God and doesn't truly have your salvation as it's priority and purpose of existence.

Love these observations. To have LDS authority to perform LDS ordinances, one must pay tithing at some point. And to take it to the next level one is expected to buy their way into Mormon heaven (tithing is required for temple attendance and ordinances which are required to enter the CK). I am amazed I didn't see it that way as a believer.

[Hagoth]

Signs and tokens don't grow on trees, you know.

[alas]

Signs and tokens don't grow on trees, you know.

That is another thing. Somehow, I can’t find it in me to worship a God who recognizes his “covenant children” by secret pass words, rather than recognizing his children because he knows and loves them. It is far too cloak and dagger and secret combinations for my taste.

[annotatedbom]

Signs and tokens don't grow on trees, you know.

Which leaves me baffled as to why I can’t get a decent price for my signs and tokens. Maybe the COVID-19 crisis has upended the market?

[Hagoth]

Which leaves me baffled as to why I can’t get a decent price for my signs and tokens. Maybe the COVID-19 crisis has upended the market?

Yeah, that's hilarious that they make a big deal of selling them. Another revelation that didn't anticipate the internet.

[annotatedbom]

Which leaves me baffled as to why I can’t get a decent price for my signs and tokens. Maybe the COVID-19 crisis has upended the market?

Yeah, that's hilarious that they make a big deal of selling them. Another revelation that didn't anticipate the internet.

Tangent thought:
In context of The GospelⓇ, selling the signs and tokens of the endowment doesn't make any literal sense (unless you wanna believe that somehow God wold be fooled and let you in with tokens and signs you bought?). Maybe you could make some argument that figuratively this makes sense in the endowment, but I don't think there's anything “revealed” about this, and if so, such an argument would be pure philosophies of men.

However, if this were part of Free Mason ceremonies, it could fit in perfectly in a literal sense. My understanding is that the rituals were kind of professional rights of passage--that the tokens and signs actually communicated that you were recognized as a professional tradesman at certain a skill level.

Question: Is this selling of tokens of signs a vestige of Masonic ceremony like I suspect?

[Hagoth]

Question: Is this selling of tokens of signs a vestige of Masonic ceremony like I suspect?

Absolutely. As I understand it, Freemasonry evolved from a union of medieval stonemasons, the guys responsible for doing the stone carving and laying for cathedrals. They traveled from project to project. As you became more skillful, and if you were a dues-paying member of the guild, you were given secret tokens that represented your skill level, that you could communicate to the boss at your next job site. An official certificate would have been nice but most people were illiterate at the time. The most dishonorable thing you could do was to sell your tokens to somebody who had not properly earned their position, because they could take work from a legitimate mason who had worked his way up through the ranks of apprenticeship. That's why you swore an oath with very real and horrifying consequences should you betray the brotherhood.

This makes absolutely no sense in the Mormon appropriation of the concept. But it does make sense in the aspect that it did in the Freemasonry of Joseph Smith's day. By then Masonry had become a secret businessman's club that had mutual benefits for members. The penalties became a way of keeping peoples' mouths shut about the inside goings-on. Joseph saw how well it worked within masonry, and how dire the consequences could be for whistle blowers like William Morgan (whose widow Joseph later married!), and how that could be applied directly to enforcing the secret society of polygamists.

The funny thing is that nowadays the ONLY people interested in selling those sacred signs and tokens is the church itself. Go figure.

[wtfluff]

This makes absolutely no sense in the Mormon appropriation of the concept. But it does make sense in the aspect that it did in the Freemasonry of Joseph Smith's day.

Yep, the selling of "signs and tokens" actually does make sense in the era of the Freemasons.

But... "Selling" signs and tokens for money in made-up bible world where Adam and Eve are the only humans on the planet, and money doesn't actually exist? Yeah: Does. Not. Make Sense.

[Palerider]

This makes absolutely no sense in the Mormon appropriation of the concept. But it does make sense in the aspect that it did in the Freemasonry of Joseph Smith's day.

Yep, the selling of "signs and tokens" actually does make sense in the era of the Freemasons.

But... "Selling" signs and tokens for money in made-up bible world where Adam and Eve are the only humans on the planet, and money doesn't actually exist? Yeah: Does. Not. Make Sense.

From a TBM point of view:

It took me awhile (probably much too long) but as a TBM I finally had to come to the conclusion that the entire endowment, especially that involving Adam and Eve was purely symbolic. It was not based in reality. And that was even as a believer in a literal Adam and Eve.

There's just too much that makes no sense whatsoever.

I mean in the D&C one of Joseph's really "impressive" revelations is regarding the keys of determining a good spirit from a bad spirit. To wit; a bad spirit will try to offer you his hand if you attempt to shake hands with him. However a good spirit will refuse to shake hands with you because it is impossible for him to deceive you.

So when Peter, James and John appear to the man Adam as spirits in their premortal form, what's the first thing Peter does with Adam?

He offers him his hand to shake!

So you only have two choices. Either premortal Peter is faking it and in reality he is an evil spirit.......or else the entire thing is meant to be symbolic and none of this crap happened.

It makes you wonder why the church never says one way or another if the endowment ceremony is supposedly based in fact or not. Frankly I don't think they want to go there. Because it would mean they would have to explain what parts are fact and which parts are symbolism.

And they. don't. know..........

[Hagoth]

So when Peter, James and John appear to the man Adam as spirits in their premortal form, what's the first thing Peter does with Adam?

He offers him his hand to shake!

Yeah, I had to give all of that up to symbolism too. The way I saw it, the first appearance of PJ&J represented their earthly ministry and their second appearance represented the restoration. Adam and Eve were just generic stand-ins for the human race by that point.

I do remember trying to imagine scenarios in which someone offered me money for my signs and tokens. In the imaginary scenario I asked them how they were going to use them. Blank stare. From time to time on my mission in the Deep South I would have someone smartass Evangelical dude slip me a temple handshake just to see my reaction, so it's not like they weren't out there even before the internet.

Even if you could imagine some scenario that they were going to somehow sneak into a temple endowment it still makes no sense because the purpose of the endowment is to teach the signs and tokens. It would make more sense to threaten a throat slitting for selling your recommend, not your tokens. NewNameNoah has done far more damage to the secret club than some guy going around trying to shake peoples' hands.

[Hagoth]

Here's a question. How do you think Joseph Smith understood the value of the signs and tokens? Was it just about keeping secrets within his little club, or did he imagine it growing much larger and remaining secret enough that people would need secret signs to recognize each other as The Special Anointed Ones? One thing it demonstrates very clearly is that the early days of an egalitarian Christ-oriented church were long gone and now it was all about special privilege for certain members.

[alas]

Here's a question. How do you think Joseph Smith understood the value of the signs and tokens? Was it just about keeping secrets within his little club, or did he imagine it growing much larger and remaining secret enough that people would need secret signs to recognize each other as The Special Anointed Ones? One thing it demonstrates very clearly is that the early days of an egalitarian Christ-oriented church were long gone and now it was all about special privilege for certain members.

Well, he took them from the Masons and the masons did use them to recognize other masons, and I think he wanted to keep the endowment to other polygamists and that was his intent, for polygamists to recognize each other.

[Hagoth]

Here's a question. How do you think Joseph Smith understood the value of the signs and tokens? Was it just about keeping secrets within his little club, or did he imagine it growing much larger and remaining secret enough that people would need secret signs to recognize each other as The Special Anointed Ones? One thing it demonstrates very clearly is that the early days of an egalitarian Christ-oriented church were long gone and now it was all about special privilege for certain members.

Well, he took them from the Masons and the masons did use them to recognize other masons, and I think he wanted to keep the endowment to other polygamists and that was his intent, for polygamists to recognize each other.

That makes sense, but the problem I was having was that at the time everyone who practiced polygamy had to be approved by Joseph, otherwise they were comitting "spiritual wifery." Then I realized that men may not have necessarily known which other men had been given the prophetic okey-dokey, in which case it would allow them to test each other. Another possibility that is that a man could ask a woman for a sign to find out whether she had already been taken so she would not a viable collectors item for his own harem.