David and Joseph

[Hagoth]

I'm watching the Waco miniseries on Netflix about David Koresh and the Branch Dividians.

David Koresh claimed that God spoke to him as a child and told him the he was the chosen prophet to restore God's kingdom to the earth. People didn't see David as a particularly bright kid, yet he had memorized the entire Bible and created a vast body of new doctrine by the time he was 18. He was very charismatic and manipulative and was able to get some very intelligent and accomplished people to believe and follow him; among his closest adherents were a Harvard-educated lawyer and a Doctor of Theology. He saw his small group as the ultimate destiny of the world, even though he imagined that all of the governments of the world were assembling in opposition, this being the Last Days. He took "the burden of sex" upon himself on behalf of his followers and married their wives and daughters, including very young teenagers, in exchange for the promise of great rewards in the world to come. He ultimately sealed his testimony with his own blood. Praise to the man.

[alas]

I'm watching the Waco miniseries on Netflix about David Koresh and the Branch Dividians.

David Koresh claimed that God spoke to him as a child and told him the he was the chosen prophet to restore God's kingdom to the earth. People didn't see David as a particularly bright kid, yet he had memorized the entire Bible and created a vast body of new doctrine by the time he was 18. He was very charismatic and manipulative and was able to get some very intelligent and accomplished people to believe and follow him; among his closest adherents were a Harvard-educated lawyer and a Doctor of Theology. He saw his small group as the ultimate destiny of the world, even though he imagined that all of the governments of the world were assembling in opposition, this being the Last Days. He took "the burden of sex" upon himself on behalf of his followers and married their wives and daughters, including very young teenagers, in exchange for the promise of great rewards in the world to come. He ultimately sealed his testimony with his own blood. Praise to the man.

Even before that, when the whole Jim Jones and the grape koolaid happened, my mother said something under her breath about “just like Joseph Smith”. I didn’t catch all of it and she immediately clammed up. Now before that my mother always pretended to be a believer and wore her Gs and went to church off and on, and felt guilty about the coffee the doctor prescribed for her. So, I was kind of shocked about her saying that. But not that shocked about the idea, because I had already seen that in Joseph Smith. He was no different than a dozen other cult leaders. But, she refused to discuss. It would have sure helped me with my doubts if she had just allowed herself to actually have her own doubts, but she just could not allow herself to go there. She died without ever honestly looking at her own doubts.

But yeah, praise to the man. Why do they all end up having sex with kids?

The funny thing is, they are all so much alike, but don’t fit neatly into one of the personality disorders as described in DSM5. I think they need their own personality disorder. It is just odd that they are all mentally deranged in the same way. Not quite narcissistic, not quite sociopaths, and not quite psychopaths, but they do have some of the characteristics and a few others tossed in.

[blazerb]

But yeah, praise to the man. Why do they all end up having sex with kids?

The funny thing is, they are all so much alike, but don’t fit neatly into one of the personality disorders as described in DSM5. I think they need their own personality disorder. It is just odd that they are all mentally deranged in the same way. Not quite narcissistic, not quite sociopaths, and not quite psychopaths, but they do have some of the characteristics and a few others tossed in.

Creating a high-demand religion seems like a good way of sifting through people to find those most willing to anything to please the leader. I don't know if these guys have the long-term planning skills needed to work this out in advance, or if they just realize what they've got a few years into the project.

In any case, lots of people have been willing to die for spurious causes. Martyrdom is not an indication of sincerity.

[Exiled]

It's definitely fascinating why people continually fall for these scams, just like I did. Psychologically, it seems, people will believe the unbelievable if first pressured by the group over and over again and then forced to publicly declare the unbelievable nonsense to others, over and over again.

[deacon blues]

This is a fascinating comparison. I think we here at NOM underestimate Joseph Smith. He did seem to have some of the same defects as Jim Jones, David Koresh, Warren Jeffs, and others. Gifted people often have great faults. Joseph did create fairly impressive quasi-scriptures. Of course people have created scriptures, pseudepigrapha, and similar quasi-scriptures for centuries. Joseph Smith just did it very well. He also created a very workable organization and a sustainable myth that has passed through some difficult challenges. How to measure such people is a conundrum. Buddha, Mohammed, Moses, and (dare I say) Jesus have all had amazing influence on history, and time will tell if Joseph Smith's movement reaches that level of influence. We are in an age of reason and information, but so many people still rely on faith, sometimes to the exclusion of all else. That's the reality as I see it. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Hagoth]

This is a fascinating comparison. I think we here at NOM underestimate Joseph Smith.

I think pretty much everyone underestimates Joseph Smith, especially believers. On one end of the spectrum you have Exmos who say he was a complete charlatan and idiot who merely plagiarized other peoples' work. At the other end of the spectrum are TBMs and church leaders who insist he was an ignorant farmboy who couldn't even dictate, let alone write a coherent letter.

What about the hypothesis that Joseph Smith was a genius, however lacking in formal education? He did some very sophisticated things and he was more than capable of writing impressive "scripture" that would convince a lot of people that he had a hotline to God. I can imagine that Joseph, like David Koresh, was so impressed with himself that maybe he even bought into his own preeminence, even when he knew he was making up a lot of it. Or maybe he just assumed that any idea that popped into his very, very special head came from God. I think maybe Koresh believed what he was saying about celibacy, which made it possible for him to get all the sex he really wanted (whether he would admit it or not), by offering himself up as a martyr/savior of sorts - the guy who has sex so you don't have to, because that's what God wants, not what I want. That reminds me of a certain story about an angel with a drawn sword. Brigham Young played a similar tune in the early days before he was an emperor, "Oh woe is me, God requires me to have soooo much sex. You should admire me for my sacrifice."

It just seems to just work out that God wants these religious guys with a lot of power to get exactly what evil men with a lot of power want. But it's completely different in their case. Because God.

[wtfluff]

I can appreciate the comparisons of Joseph to David Koresh, or Jim Jones, but are there any organizations out there similar to LDS-Inc. where the "creator" ended up a "martyr?"

How have those organizations fared through time?

[alas]

I can appreciate the comparisons of Joseph to David Koresh, or Jim Jones, but are there any organizations out there similar to LDS-Inc. where the "creator" ended up a "martyr?"

How have those organizations fared through time?

The Jesus cult.


Think about it. Jesus was killed, and he had some strong followers who took over leadership. Most seem to fizzle out after the old age death of the “prophet”. Even Warren Jeff’s is fizzling with him not right there to manipulate people. I think Mormonism got a the same lucky break with Joseph being murdered, but not taking 90% of his followers with him as Jim Jones and David Koresh and some of the others did and then having a strong leader take over the cult. Jesus had Paul, who took over and formed the cult in his own image, rather than exactly what Jesus started.

Imagine if Jim Jones had been killed in a shoot out with American police trying to rescue the sexually abused kids, but his followers were not poisoned. Then it takes a “Brigham” who is a strong advocate of the prophet and can take over leadership, sort of reorganize and canonize the doctrine and if you look at Christianity, that was Paul. None of the other disciples really left their mark on Christianity like Paul did.


But buddhism we really don’t have much of the history of how it started. Islam started with Mohamed, and his daughter carried on. And other religions just sort of evolved from older pagan religions, such as Hinduism. I can’t think of any with a martyred prophet except for the Jesus cult.

[Hagoth]

I can appreciate the comparisons of Joseph to David Koresh, or Jim Jones, but are there any organizations out there similar to LDS-Inc. where the "creator" ended up a "martyr?"

How have those organizations fared through time?

Good question. Koresh and Jones don't fit that description because the bulk of their followers died with them. Same with Marshall Applewhite. Their followings were quite small anyway. James Strang is probably considered a martyr by his followers, and they currently number in the hundreds. I can't think of any other "prophets" off hand who had a strong religious following and were immortalized by martyrdom. Gandhi was assassinated and continued to be revered by millions, but he never claimed to be a prophet of God.

[Hagoth]

Jesus had Paul, who took over and formed the cult in his own image, rather than exactly what Jesus started....Then it takes a “Brigham” who is a strong advocate of the prophet and can take over leadership, sort of reorganize and canonize the doctrine and if you look at Christianity, that was Paul.

I think that is a very apt comparison. Modern Christianity is based on the church created by Paul, not by Jesus, and there is a good argument to be made that Paul actually usurped the message, rather than merely promoting what Jesus intended that message to be. The LDS church today is unquestionably a Brighamite church. Brigham's machinations allowed him to wrest control away from people who had more legitimate claims to succession, and to set up a kingdom where he could steer things in a direction that really worked out well for himself, crediting Joseph for every questionable thing he taught.

[wtfluff]

I can appreciate the comparisons of Joseph to David Koresh, or Jim Jones, but are there any organizations out there similar to LDS-Inc. where the "creator" ended up a "martyr?"

How have those organizations fared through time?

The Jesus cult.

Excellent comparison.

Now... Does anyone know if any of the apocrypha claim that Jesus was a polygamist?

(Yes, I know that some MORmONs try to claim that Jesus was a polygamist...)

[hmb]

I can appreciate the comparisons of Joseph to David Koresh, or Jim Jones, but are there any organizations out there similar to LDS-Inc. where the "creator" ended up a "martyr?"

How have those organizations fared through time?

The Jesus cult.

Excellent comparison.

Now... Does anyone know if any of the apocrypha claim that Jesus was a polygamist?

(Yes, I know that some MORmONs try to claim that Jesus was a polygamist...)

I've been told this. Jesus practiced polygamy. I think I mentioned this before, but one of my relative's PB said that he was a direct descendent of Jesus Christ. So imagine the feeling of importance the TBMs, of that line, have. We are super special.

[Hagoth]

...one of my relative's PB said that he was a direct descendent of Jesus Christ. So imagine the feeling of importance the TBMs, of that line, have. We are super special.

What a cruel trick to play on someone, assuming they really believed it. It dooms them to a lifetime self-righteous condescension. I don's suppose you ever saw any walking across swimming pools or turning water to Sunny D?

[Reuben]

...one of my relative's PB said that he was a direct descendent of Jesus Christ. So imagine the feeling of importance the TBMs, of that line, have. We are super special.

What a cruel trick to play on someone, assuming they really believed it. It dooms them to a lifetime self-righteous condescension. I don't suppose you ever saw any walking across swimming pools or turning water to Sunny D?

I've walked across a puddle and turned water into Kool-Aid. Does that count?

[hmb]

...one of my relative's PB said that he was a direct descendent of Jesus Christ. So imagine the feeling of importance the TBMs, of that line, have. We are super special.

What a cruel trick to play on someone, assuming they really believed it. It dooms them to a lifetime self-righteous condescension. I don's suppose you ever saw any walking across swimming pools or turning water to Sunny D?

Self-righteous condescension works both ways though. You think you have so much more to live up to. Fail fail fail. Glad THAT is gone.

How about turning a mahito into pee? Such powers .

[Hagoth]

Self-righteous condescension works both ways though. You think you have so much more to live up to. Fail fail fail. Glad THAT is gone.

But there is something to be said about feeling special and having the security that you are on the right path and that all of the big questions have been answered for you. I think that's what we all wanted. When that bubble bursts some people feel liberated and other feel lost. I don't fault anyone for wanting to stay in the big group hug. What all of us really want is to feel like we have it figured out and we are on the right side of the line. I'm really uncertain about what the leaders of the church believe. I think some have doubts or know things the rest of us don't but sincerely believe the church gives people what they need to live a fulfilled life, whether or not it's true. Others seem more concerned about their own image and importance.

[RubinHighlander]

Self-righteous condescension works both ways though. You think you have so much more to live up to. Fail fail fail. Glad THAT is gone.

But there is something to be said about feeling special and having the security that you are on the right path and that all of the big questions have been answered for you. I think that's what we all wanted. When that bubble bursts some people feel liberated and other feel lost. I don't fault anyone for wanting to stay in the big group hug. What all of us really want is to feel like we have it figured out and we are on the right side of the line.

That is the crux of the faith crisis for many of us, being willing to pony up to our own integrity: "I'm pretty sure this is BS, but am I willing to face up to the fact I was duped, admit I'm not special in the world, that there may be no meaning to this life and nobody has the answers." After being indoctrinated into a strong belief systems and world view, especially for 40+ years or more, that's a major meridian to cross, as most of you know! So yes, that is the place I find my empathy for TBMs, remembering where I was just a few years ago.

I think JS not only had amazing charisma, memorization and creativity skills, but his confidence/narcissism and his ability to assimilate so many other ideas and weave them into a tapestry of perceived uniqueness to make people feel special, that's the extra magic sauce Brigham was able to take and run with. Then isolate your people in the middle of nowhere and you can solidify your formula for generations (tribal us vs. them).

We just watched the Netflix series called Unorthodox. It was an eye opener into the world of how a special tribal narrative/formula can remain successful for so many generations. All their hairdos, songs, traditions, dances, scriptures, dietary restrictions, clothing...sound familiar? This formula works really well on our species.
https://www.netflix.com/title/81019069

[Lloyd Christmas]

This series sounds really interesting Hagoth, I'll have to check it out.

Another really good one on Netflix is Wild Wild Country. It's about the Rajneeshi's going to Antalope Oregon in the 80's en masse and changing the town name and basically taking over the city and almost taking over the county. So many similarities to the early LDS church.

It seems like such a radical religion rising up in modern times would have a real challenge though. Really really good miniseries.
At times you actually start feeling bad for Rajneeshi's, then they'd go do something crazy. They do a good job of presenting from the Rajneeshi's perspective, the rural Oregon perspective, and the national perspective. The number 2 in the religion, Sheela, is still alive and hiding out in Switzerland as of the filming and it's really interesting to see all of her interviews and perspective.

[Hagoth]

Another really good one on Netflix is Wild Wild Country.

Yeah, I really enjoyed that one. I remember when that was happening. SNL did a really funny parody of Wild Wild Country too, shortly after became available.

[Exiled]

I remember the Bhagwan's representative on 60 minutes saying how she wanted to give the Bhagwan many Rolls Royces in response to incredulous questioning. I wanted to give him as many Rolls Royces as he could fit in his garage as well after that story. Why not? He thought he could fly for f___ sakes and loved women.