Where is god anyway?

[No Tof]

God has been on my mind lately.

Like most of us here on the forum I believed in the article of faith god that appeared to JS in a grove of trees and started this all off. I prayed to this loving HF daily and believed that HE listened to each little thing I said and acted immediately to make my wishes come true, or in HIS wisdom, let me wait or even at times said no way. I trusted in HIM and just went about life hoping to be just like HIM someday.

Now I wonder where HE went.

My superstitious mind wants to replace this god with another one...... maybe one who is just a power in the universe that makes stuff happen for us. Or perhaps one that is connected to some other religious guru from another group. This would be easier. "I just have to find the one true connection to this god."

I have often hoped for this; It fits into the mindset of my lifetime of indoctrination but as time goes on, I just can't see me coming to find another god.

I wish for the simple belief I once had but just don't see any reason to hold to these magical wishes any longer.

Have any of you found reason to still hold to the belief of an omniscient, omnipotent, god who is answering your prayers?

[Culper Jr.]

This sounds a lot like where I am right now. I recently decided to start at the beginning and see if there is evidence of a higher power. I know the arguments "for" there being a god, or some kind of a higher power, but I've never really explored the argument "against" there being a higher power. I've been reading/listening to a lot of Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins, and I have to say the atheist argument is very different that what I thought... and very compelling. I'm at the point now where I don't believe in organized religion. They all seem pretty harmful and controlling to varying degrees. There are certain things I still can't quite work out in my mind where I can say that I don't believe in some sort of creator or designer. I am reading Dawkins' book Climbing Mount Improbable currently... really interesting. I guess I am wanting to test my belief in a higher power; if there is a god, he/she/it should be able to withstand any critical argument. I want there to be a god... it's comforting to think of a having supernatural guide that has your back, and there being life after death and all. But I cannot live a delusion. I have to live according to what is real and true, or I am only wasting time chasing a fantasy.

[Ghost]

One thing that used to bother me when I was more orthodox in my thinking was when people would say that they like to picture God in a certain way or that they can't believe in a God with certain attributes as defined by other believers.

Not because I disagreed with the values that they were expressing, necessarily, but because I thought to myself that it's not up to us to decide what God is like based on the ever-evolving moral principles that we come up with personally or as a society. Rather, it's up to us to find out what God is like because He has certain attributes that certainly won't change based on our moral or intellectual reasoning.

These days, creating God in one's own image doesn't bother me so much because it's hard for me to avoid the conclusion that if we're going to believe in God, that's really our only option. That or take someone else's word for it who has done the same thing (and possibly written it in an old book).

Speaking of books, I hadn't heard of that new one by Dawkins. It sounds like something I'd enjoy. Some of my favorite parts of The God Delusion were the notes about animals and plants that he'd throw in.

[Red Ryder]

Have any of you found reason to still hold to the belief of an omniscient, omnipotent, god who is answering your prayers?

Nope. Well unless you can consider comforting yourself in times of need when there are no other immediate options that come to mind and you just don't know what else to do.

Lately I find that if I start thinking about solutions then problems get solved. Prayer seems to start the mind thinking about something. Like who should my deacons quorum secretary be?

Actually, I seem to be drifting farther down the path of belief that spaceship aliens are going to wipe out the planet.

Gotta go build my bunker and pray I can find the keys to my spam cans! Toodaloo

[John G.]

I had been kind of searching around for a philosophy to replace the TBM world view when I came across a Mormon Stories podcast on Stoicism. The podcast got me interested in stoicism and I've since done more reading and started trying to apply it in my day-to-day life.

This NY Times article has a brief summary of stoicism: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2 ... e-a-stoic/

What I like about stoicism is that it provides a rational solution to the common age-old problem of people stressing about circumstances that are beyond their control. The TBM solution for dealing with the stress of things out of your control is a magical or supernatural solution. Basically, as a TBM when you are stressing about something that you can't control (medical problem, financial stress, etc.) the answer is to pray and fast and ask god to bless you with a good outcome, get a priesthood blessing, and make sure you are 100% worthy to receive a blessing. If it's specifically a financial problem you're stressing about, then as a TBM you would need to pay even more tithing to get the windows of heaven opened and the blessings poured out.

The TBM reliance on the supernatural to affect the outcome can provide psychological relief to TBMs because it helps them feel like they are doing something about the problem and that they have some control over the situation. By chance sometimes it's going to turn out all right and they will feel like their prayers influenced the favorable outcome. And even if their prayers are not answered, the effort spent praying and fasting, etc, probably provided stress relief to get them through the tough times.

In contrast, the stoicism answer for how to deal with what you can't control is not based on fantasy/supernatural, but instead it is based on the realization and acceptance that since you can't control it, you need to train yourself to not stress about it. It's similar to AA's Serenity Prayer ("Help me change the things that I can, accept the thing I can't change, and the wisdom to know the difference").

I could go on and on, but I can't do stoicism justice in my post as I'm not (obviously) the most articulate writer on the subject. But so far I've found stoicism to be a good replacement for Mormonism.

[FreeFallin]

In one of the Mormon Expression episodes, John Larsen compared a faith crisis to dropping a large glass ball. It breaks into millions of little pieces and part of the recovery is picking up each little piece, reviewing it, reconsidering your beliefs about it, and making a decision about whether to keep it or leave it behind. You will recreate a new belief system with the pieces you keep.

For me, letting go of the piece that this life is meant to be a test to determine whether we are worthy to return to God has been extremely helpful in reframing a view of spirituality. Experiences in life can have great value without it all leading to a final good/bad judgment. What works for me is belief that we are spiritual (eternal) beings having a temporary life experience. Since life is not something that leads to a final reward or punishment, the possibilities of simply experiencing a variety of circumstances and learning and choosing through those experiences are enough to find meaning. God, or the Universe, or Source, or whatever loves unconditionally, and it is my belief that I also love unconditionally, but I am not always connected to that part of myself. My purpose in life is learning to connect to this higher part of me. Spiritual but not religious.

[Red Ryder]

Poking my head out of my bunker for a minute here. You all have more wisdoms than I clearly do.

I could go on and on, but I can't do stoicism justice in my post as I'm not (obviously) the most articulate writer on the subject. But so far I've found stoicism to be a good replacement for Mormonism.

Keep going. You've peeked my interest enough to undo my personal ban on mormon themed podcasts and listen.

[Red Ryder]

In one of the Mormon Expression episodes, John Larsen compared a faith crisis to dropping a large glass ball. It breaks into millions of little pieces and part of the recovery is picking up each little piece, reviewing it, reconsidering your beliefs about it, and making a decision about whether to keep it or leave it behind. You will recreate a new belief system with the pieces you keep.

For me, letting go of the piece that this life is meant to be a test to determine whether we are worthy to return to God has been extremely helpful in reframing a view of spirituality. Experiences in life can have great value without it all leading to a final good/bad judgment. What works for me is belief that we are spiritual (eternal) beings having a temporary life experience. Since life is not something that leads to a final reward or punishment, the possibilities of simply experiencing a variety of circumstances and learning and choosing through those experiences are enough to find meaning. God, or the Universe, or Source, or whatever loves unconditionally, and it is my belief that I also love unconditionally, but I am not always connected to that part of myself. My purpose in life is learning to connect to this higher part of me. Spiritual but not religious.

I like this approach too. It takes the focus off following church centered actions framed as a test of loyalty to God (the church) and leaves us with a personal choice to be spiritual and/or religious/non-religious. Essentially we kick out the church and are left with our inherent desire to do good. A desire that is natural and eliminates judgment of others who may not be following the required path of a church.

Mormons are unknowingly judgmental as a result of comparing everyone to their set of rules whether everyone believes them or not.

[LSOF]

GODISNOWHERE

[Jinx]

Have you ever been in a large group of people who were all focused on the same thing? Yesterday's women's marches come to mind, but it could be something as trivial as a concert or a sporting event. You feel excited, exalted, you feel a sense of kinship with others around you.

This is God to me. The power of human intelligence to band together and accomplish great things. I know I'm not expressing it well, but I believe in the spiritual power of unified humanity.

[John G.]

Poking my head out of my bunker for a minute here. You all have more wisdoms than I clearly do.

I could go on and on, but I can't do stoicism justice in my post as I'm not (obviously) the most articulate writer on the subject. But so far I've found stoicism to be a good replacement for Mormonism.

Keep going. You've peeked my interest enough to undo my personal ban on mormon themed podcasts and listen.

Well, you don't have to ask me twice!

Another way I've found stoicism helpful is with guilt and run-of-the-mill negative thoughts. Everyone has a critical voice inside their head that causes them stress. I'm talking about normal negative thoughts like, "I shouldn't have lost my temper with my kids," "I wish I had done better in my sales presentation at my job," " I wish I hadn't argued with my wife," etc. etc. Everyone has these types of thoughts and for most people they are stressful, but not overwhelming enough to cause clinical depression.

The TBM way of dealing with these types of thoughts, and mental stress that comes from them, is by taking the sacrament every week. The doctrine behind taking the bread and water is that every time you take it you renew your baptismal covenants and are forgiven your sins. For the TBM, taking the sacrament is a way to start anew and put behind them the guilt and stress for past minor wrongs.

I went inactive after my mission, but I watch my TBM parents take the sacrament and they take it seriously! They get in a meditative state singing the slow sacrament song and then after they take the bread and water they close their eyes and I guess focus on Jesus's Atonement and how it applies to them. I can see how going to church for them, as TBMs, can feel psychologically great and help them feel renewed and rejuvenated for a new week. (Whereas for me, a NOM, the sacrament is just boring).

In contrast, the stoic way of dealing with negative thoughts does not rely on the supernatural, but instead focuses on living "hic et nunc,” in the here and now. Stoicism emphasizes living in the present moment and not ruminating about the past. After all, we can't change the past so we shouldn't stress about it. Stoicism primarily practices meditation and other mindfulness techniques to help a person focus on the present. There are also some evidence-based cognitive behavioral techniques in various books that also help a person focus on the present.

I've being trying to focus on the present and practice daily meditation lately and I definitely feel more relaxed and less stressed when I do! Even through religion has a supernatural aspect to it, most religions also include a lot of meditative practices (like praying, chanting, etc). So, in my opinion, both religion and stoicism basically use similar techniques to deal with negative thoughts and guilt about the past, but stoicism doesn't have all the supernatural baggage with it like religion does.

This is great book about the stoic philosophy.
https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life- ... +good+life

[Korihor]

GODISNOWHERE

Probably the best quote I've seen in a very long time.

[Corsair]

Keep going. You've peeked my interest enough to undo my personal ban on mormon themed podcasts and listen.

Well, you don't have to ask me twice!

Another way I've found stoicism helpful is with guilt and run-of-the-mill negative thoughts. Everyone has a critical voice inside their head that causes them stress. I'm talking about normal negative thoughts like, "I shouldn't have lost my temper with my kids," "I wish I had done better in my sales presentation at my job," " I wish I hadn't argued with my wife," etc. etc. Everyone has these types of thoughts and for most people they are stressful, but not overwhelming enough to cause clinical depression.

Here is a brief podcast on Stoic thought and the historical development of Stoic philosophy. I have enjoyed every episode of the "Philosophize This!" podcast.

[Linked]

In one of the Mormon Expression episodes, John Larsen compared a faith crisis to dropping a large glass ball. It breaks into millions of little pieces and part of the recovery is picking up each little piece, reviewing it, reconsidering your beliefs about it, and making a decision about whether to keep it or leave it behind. You will recreate a new belief system with the pieces you keep.

This is beautiful, thanks for sharing. I love this metaphor. My glass ball wasn't dropped, I was recreating a new belief system based on life experiences and it stressed my glass ball until it shattered, from the inside. Time to start journaling about each piece of my former beliefs so I have an answer for myself.

As for the OP's question, I have not found a compelling reason to believe in a God who is actively engaged in our lives. There are still mysteries for me where a less personal God may be hiding. We have no way of knowing what was going on before the Big Bang, or outside of our universe. The source of self is still mystifying to me, and it's hard not to at least hope that it is more than just in our heads. And lately I've been thinking more about the possibility that our universe is a complex simulation, which would make the creator/runner of the simulation the closest thing to God.

[No Tof]

Thank you for your input.

I hoped god would perhaps say a word or two but like I figured, the best we can hope for is a kind word from a fellow wanderer.

[Corsair]

[document]

Have any of you found reason to still hold to the belief of an omniscient, omnipotent, god who is answering your prayers?

Nope. Once I stopped caring whether there is a god or not, I started focusing on what was important to me. Ironically, that meant going to church every week and praying. *Shrugs shoulders* Go figure, I'm happy.

[Corsair]

Have any of you found reason to still hold to the belief of an omniscient, omnipotent, god who is answering your prayers?

Nope. Once I stopped caring whether there is a god or not, I started focusing on what was important to me. Ironically, that meant going to church every week and praying. *Shrugs shoulders* Go figure, I'm happy.

I have a lot of respect for people that have come to a positive decision on faith. I doubt that i will come to any firm spiritual conclusions as long as I am exposed to 3 hours of Mormon church every week. I can appreciate the community of the LDS church, but the type of spirituality it requires keeps pushing me towards atheism and materialism.

[wtfluff]

Hasn't god shown up on someone's toast lately?

A potato chip maybe?

[RubinHighlander]

I liked this video on YouTube that explains the origins and evolution of God based on historical and archeological evidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg

And, if after watching that you still want to go searching for God, here's some advice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gcw1YEtTQCw