Knowing Joseph: Joseph Smith & Nauvoo Plural Marriage (SLC)

[oliblish]

My (TBM) wife got tickets to this conference about Joseph Smith Polygamy and she wants me to go. I told her before that I wasn't interested, but she got some tickets and has invited a friend and wants me to join. The only thing worse than going might be having her go without me.

I really don't want to get into an argument about polygamy. The apologetics on this make me want to throw up and I just don't think I can handle a whole day of excuses for why it was OK for Joseph to do what he did.

I was thinking I might say I would go as long as she would prepare for it by reading a number of chapters of "In Sacred Loneliness" as preparation for the event. If she is going to hear the apologetic slant on things I want her to read the real story first.

Any ideas here? We really haven't discussed the church for a couple of years and I am afraid things can get ugly if we have to have discussions about Nauvoo Polygamy. I believe they have had this conference in other locations last year (St. George and Logan I think). Has anyone attended one of these or heard anything about them?

If I do end up going do you have any suggestions for questions I can ask or comments I should make? I think they will avoid the most uncomfortable issues so it may be up to someone like me to bring them up...

Here is the info on the Conference. It is at This is the Place Heritage Park Saturday Feb 15:



https://www.eventbrite.com/e/knowing-jo ... 5361679813

Knowing Joseph: Joseph Smith & Nauvoo Plural Marriage (SLC)
by History of the Saints

Date And Time
Sat, February 15, 2020
10:00 AM – 4:00 PM MST

We had so many positive comments and requests from both those who attended and those who were not able to attend, that we've decided to cover this topic again, but at a Salt Lake Location. There will be several of the same speakers with revised materials as well as at least one new speaker at the event.

We were overwhelmed by the reception of at this event in August 2019, and decided that it needed to be done again.

Plural marriage is one of the most controversial and difficult topics in Latter-day Saint history. It was a faith-challenging doctrine and practice in 1840’s Nauvoo, and remains so today. Many people in the Church and out struggle, not only with the doctrine itself but with the fact that the Church ever practiced it.

History of the Saints, producer of the acclaimed documentary television show is bringing together some of the foremost experts and scholars to present on this controversial topic for a ONE-DAY event.

For many, both men and women, the introduction of plural marriage in Nauvoo was a sore trial of faith. The mere proposition offended the delicate sensibilities to such an extent that it brought forth the strongest of feelings. And yet, for those who inquired of the Lord and obeyed the commandment there were remarkable manifestations received. This presentation will focus on some of the individual stories of those required to face this challenging doctrine.

Purpose Of The Event

These seminars have been an ongoing and traveling event that have been held in different cities in Utah.

Each one has had different speakers and topics. All have been devoted to the teaching of the history of the early Restoration, and strengthening the faith of those who attend. The purpose has been to teach the most reliable history from the best-informed scholars, and while doing so, confronting and dealing with the tough questions and controversial moments in that history.

Trusted Sources: Anthony Sweat will talk about those sources of history that can and cannot be trusted.
History & Context: Glenn Rawson will take the discussion into the lives and stories of those who lived plural marriage or rejected it. It is not expected that this event will speak for or against plural marriage, but rather make the doctrine thereof and the historical practice and context as transparent as possible.
Revealed Doctrine: Brian and Laura Hales, world-recognized authorities on Nauvoo plural marriage, will discuss the revealed doctrine of plural marriage and the history of its implementation and practice in Nauvoo.
Transparent. Historically Accurate. Faith Building.

In keeping with presenting history in its proper context and answering troubling questions, the theme for this year’s conference in Layton is Joseph Smith and Nauvoo Plural Marriage.


Schedule:

9:00 AM - Doors Open

10 AM to 12 PM - Speakers

12-2 PM - Lunch break/Free time

2 PM to 4 PM - Afternoon Speakers

[moksha]

Is there any chance that if your wife attended by herself, that they might try and marry her off to someone else? Joseph always looked for opportunities for extra dalliances.

[wtfluff]

Some useless Fluffy opinions.

I was thinking I might say I would go as long as she would prepare for it by reading a number of chapters of "In Sacred Loneliness" as preparation for the event. If she is going to hear the apologetic slant on things I want her to read the real story first.

How about sitting down and reading through D&C 132 together? Most active believers have never actually read through the polygamy "revelation" and actually THOUGHT about it.

Not that "In Sacred Loneliness" wouldn't work either. If you can actually get that to happen, game on!

If I do end up going do you have any suggestions for questions I can ask or comments I should make? I think they will avoid the most uncomfortable issues so it may be up to someone like me to bring them up...

Why do you have to ask questions or make suggestions at all? Re-frame the entire experience and just act like it's a sociological study, and you are simply an observer. Pretend you are at a Flat Earth convention, hold your wife's hand, and think to yourself: "Wow, people actually believe that!" and leave it at that.

[jfro18]

My condolences to you on this one - sounds like an entire day wasted by people trying to tell you that Joseph preying on young women was from God.

If you do go... definitely let us know what sources they deem OK and not OK - I always love how the church is the only one that can tell you which sources are OK and which are of the devil.

I'm so glad I do not live in Utah or in the 'Morridor' because I am fairly certain my wife would be going to these as I've gone through the deep dive into their history.

[RubinHighlander]

There are probably some very key bullet points that are factual and should be brought up. I'm not an expert on this topic, but maybe when JS approached the first girl, regardless of whether there's a smoking gun to show he had sex with them, just the fact it was done without Emma's knowledge and that he later reenacted the marriage to attempt to supplicate her. Why marry a dozen women and girls in secret and over a decade (1833-1843) then later justify it with D&C 132 in 1843, why not the revelation then the marriages? I mean, TSCC didn't let blacks in the temple over ten years, then later justify it as a revelation. They do, however, change policy to revelation in our modern age (POX).

Something like those types of facts that are likely to be avoided but can be honest questions backed up by factual historical documentation that gas lighting would be really difficult to get around. There are some smart folks here that could come up with some carefully crafted questions to paint the apologists in to a corner, but asked in a way that does not sound directly attacking?

You might put the question on ExMo Reddit to see if anyone else has attended this conference before and find out if there is an open Q&A at these sessions. If there is open Q&A that would give one hope that there will be those in the audience that will ask some tough questions, which means the heat is off you to ask them, but you could later go over those tough questions with DW in a manner where it's not just you, but in the context of that other person.

[oliblish]

If you do go... definitely let us know what sources they deem OK and not OK - I always love how the church is the only one that can tell you which sources are OK and which are of the devil.

I am pretty sure I already know the answer to this. It is the same as it has always been.

If a source concludes that the church is true and Joseph was a prophet, then it is a good source. If it makes the church or its leaders look bad, then the source is unreliable.

[Red Ryder]

I would love to be in your shoes with my wife.

Here’s why:

It shows she is bothered and needs to reconcile or learn more. Hello entrance to The Rabbit Hole!

Here’s what you do:

Step 1

Simply agree to go with her! Then Shut your mouth, pass go, and collect $200 worth of emotional bonus points. Keep your mouth shut. Nope, close it, shhhhhhh don’t talk!

No pre-requisite reading or any other church discussions. Ask her what she’s going to wear? Why you ask? Because you love her more than you hate the church and the lame polygamy apologetics.

Step 2:

Attend with her. Bring something to entertain yourself. Count ceiling tiles, play tic tac toe with yourself, bring coloring crayons. Sleep, write a novel, post on NOM, whatever you need to do to maintain your sanity. Ear pods or noise canceling headphones are ok with me, but may draw unwanted attention to you. Do whatever you need to do. We don’t judge.

Step 3:

Drive home in peaceful meditation letting her deliver her thoughts to you. Sit back and listen. Keep your mouth shut. Let her process her thoughts and wait for the download to complete. If she asks, thank her for the invite and let her know how fascinating the whole things is. Whatever you do, DON’T BE NEGATIVE! If she asks how you feel about it tell her you're interested and want to learn more. You’re planting seeds, setting hooks, trolling Corsair’s polygamy dating app, whatever you want to call it.

Step 4:

Be the best damn husband this side of the Mississippi and be overly thankful to and for her.

Step 5:

Option A:
Buy a copy of In Sacred Loneliness and begin reading it yourself. If you already own and have read the book, pull it out and pretend like you are doing it again. Find any interesting correlations to the book and the conference. Bring those up in passing. Build excitement around the “new things” you’re learning and support the conference agenda. This may take a few days, a few weeks, a few months, but keep it going. Leave the book lying around and influence her to pick it up to read “The Rest of the Story!”

Option B: buy her a copy as a gift and give it to her based on her desire to attend and learn more. Make sure you get a gift receipt from Deseret Book.

Step 6: let her marinate in this new and everlasting covenant herself and shut up and become indifference to the church. Love her for her beauty, her intelligence, and her ability to make you a better person. Avoid poisoning your marriage because Joseph Smith had many!

I found once I stopped caring about having church conversations about all the issues the more my wife started to ask and look into herself.

The point I’m trying to make is you can’t drag her over to the entrance of “The Rabbit Hole” and push her in, but you surely can loiter around and influence her to walk in on her own.

[oliblish]

There are probably some very key bullet points that are factual and should be brought up. I'm not an expert on this topic, but maybe when JS approached the first girl, regardless of whether there's a smoking gun to show he had sex with them, just the fact it was done without Emma's knowledge and that he later reenacted the marriage to attempt to supplicate her. Why marry a dozen women and girls in secret and over a decade (1833-1843) then later justify it with D&C 132 in 1843, why not the revelation then the marriages? I mean, TSCC didn't let blacks in the temple over ten years, then later justify it as a revelation. They do, however, change policy to revelation in our modern age (POX).

Something like those types of facts that are likely to be avoided but can be honest questions backed up by factual historical documentation that gas lighting would be really difficult to get around. There are some smart folks here that could come up with some carefully crafted questions to paint the apologists in to a corner, but asked in a way that does not sound directly attacking?

You might put the question on ExMo Reddit to see if anyone else has attended this conference before and find out if there is an open Q&A at these sessions. If there is open Q&A that would give one hope that there will be those in the audience that will ask some tough questions, which means the heat is off you to ask them, but you could later go over those tough questions with DW in a manner where it's not just you, but in the context of that other person.

The more I think about this trying to bring up issues is probably pointless. These guys have been doing these sorts of presentations for years. I am sure they have figured out how to control the message and shut out any dissenting voices. I would be surprised if they open things up for questions at all.
If they do allow for questions, it will probably be like they did for the Swedish rescue. In that presentation they took a bunch of questions from the audience all at once and then addressed them after they were all collected. That way, they were able to avoid follow up questions and were able to only answer with general talking points about each subject that they had prepared in advance. Most of the tough questions weren't really addressed.

[Red Ryder]

Here’s the exit ramp for all TBM’s:

Trusted Sources: Anthony Sweat will talk about those sources of history that can and cannot be trusted.

[oliblish]

I would love to be in your shoes with my wife.

Here’s why:

It shows she is bothered and needs to reconcile or learn more. Hello entrance to The Rabbit Hole!

Here’s what you do:

Step 1

Simply agree to go with her! Then Shut your mouth, pass go, and collect $200 worth of emotional bonus points. Keep your mouth shut. Nope, close it, shhhhhhh don’t talk!

No pre-requisite reading or any other church discussions. Ask her what she’s going to wear? Why you ask? Because you love her more than you hate the church and the lame polygamy apologetics.

Step 2:

Attend with her. Bring something to entertain yourself. Count ceiling tiles, play tic tac toe with yourself, bring coloring crayons. Sleep, write a novel, post on NOM, whatever you need to do to maintain your sanity. Ear pods or noise canceling headphones are ok with me, but may draw unwanted attention to you. Do whatever you need to do. We don’t judge.

Step 3:

Drive home in peaceful meditation letting her deliver her thoughts to you. Sit back and listen. Keep your mouth shut. Let her process her thoughts and wait for the download to complete. If she asks, thank her for the invite and let her know how fascinating the whole things is. Whatever you do, DON’T BE NEGATIVE! If she asks how you feel about it tell her you're interested and want to learn more. You’re planting seeds, setting hooks, trolling Corsair’s polygamy dating app, whatever you want to call it.

Step 4:

Be the best damn husband this side of the Mississippi and be overly thankful to and for her.

Step 5:

Option A:
Buy a copy of In Sacred Loneliness and begin reading it yourself. If you already own and have read the book, pull it out and pretend like you are doing it again. Find any interesting correlations to the book and the conference. Bring those up in passing. Build excitement around the “new things” you’re learning and support the conference agenda. This may take a few days, a few weeks, a few months, but keep it going. Leave the book lying around and influence her to pick it up to read “The Rest of the Story!”

Option B: buy her a copy as a gift and give it to her based on her desire to attend and learn more. Make sure you get a gift receipt from Deseret Book.

Step 6: let her marinate in this new and everlasting covenant herself and shut up and become indifference to the church. Love her for her beauty, her intelligence, and her ability to make you a better person. Avoid poisoning your marriage because Joseph Smith had many!

I found once I stopped caring about having church conversations about all the issues the more my wife started to ask and look into herself.

The point I’m trying to make is you can’t drag her over to the entrance of “The Rabbit Hole” and push her in, but you surely can loiter around and influence her to walk in on her own.

I like your advice and think you have some good ideas. The problem is that I don't think my wife has any interest in any of this. She just thinks that if she acts interested she can get me there and it will resolve my concerns somehow. She probably won't pay much attention to any of the presentations other than the testimonies that will be born that everything is ok.

I like the idea of reading D&C 132. I have considered doing this before. It is just really long and the good stuff is mostly toward the end of the section. I might need to read through it again and consider how to approach this.

The thing that concerns me the most is that if she hears the apologetic version of polygamy first, it will inoculate her against this issue permanently. That is certainly one of the reasons this conference exists.

This is why I am considering introducing here to the Tod Compton book in advance. Even if I could just get her to read the introduction and the chapters about Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball, the Partridge sisters, Zina Jacobs and Marinda Hyde maybe it would pique her curiosity. But I am not optimistic. Maybe I need to include one or two more of the polyandry examples. Any suggestions?

[Palerider]

If you feel like you have to go, you have to go....

But I might verbally point out that nothing these BYU grad bumpkins say will carry any weight. It's all filtered opinion.

What you're waiting for is an official general conference where a number of the general authorities take up the subject of polygamy IN HISTORICAL DETAIL and declare that it is the official stance and doctrine of the church. Ask her if she thinks the GAs are afraid to discuss it. Why are they letting these peons run interference for them?

Ask your wife why polygamy can't be discussed at length in Gospel Doctrine class.

[oliblish]

What you're waiting for is an official general conference where a number of the general authorities take up the subject of polygamy IN HISTORICAL DETAIL and declare that it is the official stance and doctrine of the church. Ask her if she thinks the GAs are afraid to discuss it. Why are they letting these peons run interference for them?

This is a good point. Why do you have to pay $35 to go to a Saturday conference to learn this stuff? If there aren't any problems with polygamy, they should be bringing it up in General Conference and the Sunday School curriculum.

Ask your wife why polygamy can't be discussed at length in Gospel Doctrine class.

My wife teaches Gospel Doctrine and last year was Old Testament. Once she was looking for something interesting to add to a lesson that included levirate marriages. My suggestion was to bring up how Brigham young took on a number of Joseph Smith's wives after his death as a modern application of levirate marriage. I thought it was a great idea but she certainly realized that it was not an appropriate subject for Sunday School. I am sure she had no idea that Brigham Young married some of Joseph's wives and didn't want to learn any more about it.

[2bizE]

My thoughts....this is what caught my eye from the brochure. “Transparent. Historically Accurate. Faith Building.”
There is nothing faith building about polygamy.

If you go, here are some questions to ask:
1) We know Joseph had a fetish for young girls, did he also have one for older women?
2) How did Emma feel about polygamy?
3) Why did Joseph have sex with every young girl that came to live in his home?
4) How come Joseph didn’t follow the rules defined in DC 132?
5) Do we know of Joseph’s favorite sexual positions?

[Sheamus Moore]

From the pitch: “...And yet, for those who inquired of the Lord and obeyed the commandment there were remarkable manifestations received”

What remarkable manifestations, pray tell?

[Palerider]

5) Do we know of Joseph’s favorite sexual positions?

A bridge too far......

[Corsair]

If I do end up going do you have any suggestions for questions I can ask or comments I should make? I think they will avoid the most uncomfortable issues so it may be up to someone like me to bring them up...

Red Ryder has the right idea. Treat this weekend with indifference and don't react emotionally to it. This will compel your wife provide the emotionally energy for it. Your negative reaction to it will be treated as a low level insult against your wife's beliefs. This is an expensive religious hobby she has and we cannot get sucked into supporting it just because they feel so passionately about it.

The ultimate answer for plural marriage that both believer and skeptics can agree on is this: Joseph Smith and the early Mormons believed they were following God. We may have some distinctly base suspicions about Joseph's interest in having 30+ wives. Certainly Brigham and his successors were a bit more open about how much they enjoyed the benefits of plural marriage. Around believers, simply focus on the the fact that Joseph and the early Mormons were certain that they were following God's commandments.

At that point it simply is a question of whether or not you trust Joseph Smith. Would Brian and Laura Hales allow their 18 year old daughter to hang around Joseph, Brigham, Heber C. Kimball, and John C. Bennet? Would Glenn Rawson or Anthony Sweat accept that challenge? Do they think that their attractive 18 year old daughter would stay single or end up monogamous around the Nauvoo and Salt Lake City leadership?

The current youngest apostle is Ulisses Soares. Suppose that Russell Nelson and Dallin Oaks called any of the presenters into his office today and told them that by revelation they should present their 18 year old daughter to Elder Soares as a plural wife. This was a commandment from God backed by solemn revelation and covenant. It would ensure their salvation. Would they accept this commandment from the Lord? "They would never ask that" is a weak, unprincipled answer. And it would indicate that they don't have a firm testimony of Joseph Smith and they profoundly underestimate him.

I would flatly turn down that kind of call. But maybe they would accept. I have posed that question to believers and had them carefully tell me that they would accept such a call. Thus we see where they have placed their faith.

Don't get drawn into this emotionally during this day of polygamy gaslighting. Be indifferent and simply accept that they have this shallow acceptance of such silliness. It will be people like you that stand against onerous requests from the LDS church in the future.

[Wonderment]

For many, both men and women, the introduction of plural marriage in Nauvoo was a sore trial of faith. The mere proposition offended the delicate sensibilities to such an extent that it brought forth the strongest of feelings. And yet, for those who inquired of the Lord and obeyed the commandment there were remarkable manifestations received. This presentation will focus on some of the individual stories of those required to face this challenging doctrine.

I have heard part of this presentation, and it is nothing but apologists making faith-promoting remarks. ( Where is the barfing emoji?) Any time you see the delicate euphemism "plural marriage", you know you're dealing with church apologists, because everyone else calls it what is is --- polygamy. There is nothing "neutral" about this "plural marriage" presentation. Nothing. Nor will they answer any questions which they perceive to be too challenging or too argumentative. It is a complete whitewash job. Imagine sitting through a 6 hour presentation on why you should buy a timeshare condo in some resort area. That's what it's equivalent to -- a time share presentation on why you should throw your doubts to the wind and just buy in to whatever polygamy apologetics they are peddling.

If you have to sit through six hours of this b.s. in order to make your wife happy, then she should at least have to spend an hour reading The Exponent, a blog of faithful members who take on issues with church patriarchy, along with Lindsay Hansen Park's podcasts and historical work on polygamy. I think she has a segment on Mormon Stories which can be listened to free of charge. Your wife can also read the gospel topics essays. My opinion is that sitting through long-winded defenses of indefensible practices is a form of religious abuse; and when we are asked to do that for a loved one, we can respond by asking that our viewpoint be honored and understood also. -- Wndr.

[jfro18]

Any time you see the delicate euphemism "plural marriage", you know you're dealing with church apologists, because everyone else calls it what is is --- polygamy. There is nothing "neutral" about this "plural marriage" presentation. Nothing. Nor will they answer any questions which they perceive to be too challenging or too argumentative. It is a complete whitewash job. Imagine sitting through a 6 hour presentation on why you should buy a timeshare condo in some resort area. That's what it's equivalent to -- a time share presentation on why you should throw your doubts to the wind and just buy in to whatever polygamy apologetics they are peddling.

If you have to sit through six hours of this b.s. in order to make your wife happy, then she should at least have to spend an hour reading The Exponent, a blog of faithful members who take on issues with church patriarchy, along with Lindsay Hansen Park's podcasts and historical work on polygamy.

I think the Year of Polygamy podcast is amazing- I haven't listened to all of them, but I have listened to the earlier ones and the two parter with John Hamer and they are great. Lindsay does not do a stereotypical critical type podcast - it's pretty straightforward and I think would be tolerable for TBMs who are honestly wanting to learn.

And the first point is spot on -- the second you hear "plural marriage" you know it's not going to get into the really tough areas.

Polygamy is gross, but plural marriage is awesome.

[Palerider]

If you have to sit through six hours of this b.s. in order to make your wife happy, then she should at least have to spend an hour reading The Exponent, a blog of faithful members who take on issues with church patriarchy, along with Lindsay Hansen Park's podcasts and historical work on polygamy.

This. This is fair. Anyone who couldn't agree to this is not interested in give and take.

[AllieOop]

My (TBM) wife got tickets to this conference about Joseph Smith Polygamy and she wants me to go. I told her before that I wasn't interested, but she was able to get some free tickets and has invited a friend and wants me to join. The only thing worse than going might be having her go without me.

I really don't want to get into an argument about polygamy. The apologetics on this make me want to throw up and I just don't think I can handle a whole day of excuses for why it was OK for Joseph to do what he did.

I don't know if I could stomach listening to Brian Hales and his wife, but if you decide to go, here are a couple of things to remember:

Hales wrote the church essays on polygamy (this comes from several inside reliable sources). He's the go to guy for our church leaders regarding apologetics for polyamy. He wrote the essays and then sourced himself 8 times in the footnotes

So he came up with theories and then incorporated them into the essays as if they were facts (and then sourced his own books and writings as if they contain documented facts).

He's big on the "eternity only" sealings and states many of Joseph's were these types of sealings (ie: No Sex). The truth is that there is absolutely no documentation or record anywhere stating that ANY of Joseph's sealings were for "eternity only".

He's especially adamant that none of Joseph's polyandrous marriages involved sex (even though there are wives and other witnesses who state there was). Other polyandrous marriages did involves sex during the Nauvoo period (children were born), while Joseph was alive, with his sanction.....but he didn't have sex with any of his wives? That makes no sense.

He also likes to claim that it was normal and common for girls as young as 14 years to marry during that time period. This is false. Average age of marriage for women was in their early 20's (I think 22 years of age). Also, it was definitely NOT common (or accepted) for 14 year old girls or teens to marry men in their late 30's (who had dozens of other wives already)....he never brings those details up, of course.

Those may be his two biggest arguments he continues to push. I think he does do some good research, but I absolutely do not trust him or his theories and conclusions.

Let us know if you go! I'll be very interested to hear what you think......



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