CFM - If I could ask them one question this week . . .

[annotatedbom]

This is the first week of the Book of Mormon Come Follow Me Lessons. For those still attending these classes or sitting with family discussing this, I want to offer the one question I might ask to generate thought and to get a better understanding of what believers think about things.

My one question this week would be:"Why are these Sunday School chairs so uncomfortable?"

But seriously, this week my question might be:
"Why were the golden plates needed when Joseph didn't actually use them for the translation?"

• We know he used a rock (and the spectacles early on) in a hat for the translation (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... ranslation)

• Moroni and Mormon carried and buried the plates, for what reason?

• Joseph says he had to run and fight off attackers who wanted the plates (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/man ... apter-four)

Some speculate he needed the plates as a physical prop to promote the faith necessary for translation. Really? But as a young man he had enough faith to be visited and instructed by the angel Moroni, right? Wasn't he about 14 years old when his faith was so strong he not only visited with Jesus, but was graced by the presence of God the Father? Why would such a person need a prop? If he needed a prop, why don't ordinary folks like us get a lot more help to promote our faith?

Honorable mention
I thought I might ask something to get at the reliability of the Three and Eight Witnesses accounts, but I think it's a little more difficult to get your mind around the problems with them. But, if you feel prompted, maybe something like,
"If the witnesses are such good evidence, why don't we consider the witnesses for the plates of James Strang's 'Book of the Law of the Lord' as evidence for the book's truth?" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Strang)
Or, "Why don't we believe the witnesses who testified of the supernatural events associated with Ellen White's (prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventist Church) visions?"

• The witnesses of the BoM plates were all close associates of Joseph.

• We know others testified for Joseph of things that are undeniably false (fist annotation at https://a-bom.github.io/testof8.html).

• False memories can be implanted by strangers ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il0u2s_WGXA).

• Studies indicate a known, respected person in someone's life would be more capable of shaping a person's memory (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00257/full).

Have fund studying the Book of Mormon in the Come Follow Me program this year!

Love you all!
A-BoM

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Great questions and I would add that Martin Harris who is respected as a witness also went on a strangite mission later. If he was credible concerning his original witness, why would we discount his credibility later following strang? Perhaps because he returned to the Brighamite fold at the end.

[Hagoth]

Why would such a person need a prop? If he needed a prop, why don't ordinary folks like us get a lot more help to promote our faith?
A-BoM

Great questions.
He did, of course, have a prop of some sort but it was not provided by an angel. The testimonies of the witnesses and other friends and family of Joseph make it pretty obvious that there was a heavy object that was sometimes "hefted" in a box and sometimes in a tablecloth.

One immediate problem is that the plates, as described by Joseph, would not even come close to fitting in Hyrum's writing box, where Joseph claims to have kept them locked up. Even the Church History Museum couldn't find a way to disguise the problem with the actual box, which they have on display:

If you stoop down and look at it edge-on you will see that even just the sealed portion extends about half way above box at the shallow end. Oops.

[wtfluff]

Is LD$-Inc. really using "CFM" as an initialism to represent Come Follow Me???

[annotatedbom]

Is LD$-Inc. really using "CFM" as an initialism to represent Come Follow Me???

I really don’t see what the big deal is with cubic feet per minute.

In all seriousness though, I’m naive enough (or boomer enough?) that I had no idea of the other abbreviation you’re referring to. Click bait and I didn’t even know

Oh, and I don’t see that the Church uses that abbreviation. That was all my doing.

Thanks for pointing out my faux pas!
[A-BoM walks away, humbled but a tad wiser]

[annotatedbom]

I would add that Martin Harris who is respected as a witness also went on a strangite mission later. If he was credible concerning his original witness, why would we discount his credibility later following strang? Perhaps because he returned to the Brighamite fold at the end.

Good point! And, I would add that it seems he was susceptible to all sorts of wild superstitions and unreasonable beliefs.

[1smartdodog]

I do alot of backpacking. A 35 lb pack is about right. A 50 lb pack will wear you down over miles. So if the plates weighed 60 lbs as reported how did Moroni carry them some 3000 miles? Add in 10 lbs for food, 25 lbs for the sword of Laban, and another 20 for misc items like something to keep warm.

Over 100 lbs and not even a decent backpack to load it in. That would take a miracle to move all that over even terrain, let alone rivers, mountains, and jungle.

Thats my question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hagoth]

I do alot of backpacking. A 35 lb pack is about right. A 50 lb pack will wear you down over miles. So if the plates weighed 60 lbs as reported how did Moroni carry them some 3000 miles? Add in 10 lbs for food, 25 lbs for the sword of Laban, and another 20 for misc items like something to keep warm.

Over 100 lbs and not even a decent backpack to load it in. That would take a miracle to move all that over even terrain, let alone rivers, mountains, and jungle.

Thats my question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Two observations:
1) you forgot to add a metal breastplate and magic spectacles
2) have you considered pack tapirs?

[wtfluff]

Is LD$-Inc. really using "CFM" as an initialism to represent Come Follow Me???

I really don’t see what the big deal is with cubic feet per minute.

In all seriousness though, I’m naive enough (or boomer enough?) that I had no idea of the other abbreviation you’re referring to. Click bait and I didn’t even know

Oh, and I don’t see that the Church uses that abbreviation. That was all my doing.

Thanks for pointing out my faux pas!
[A-BoM walks away, humbled but a tad wiser]

Well... There was a bit of hoopla over that initialism at one point here on NOM, or I wouldn't have an idea of the "other" meaning; That's why it caught my eye.

LD$-Inc. seems to be a bit naive when it comes to initialisms and acronyms lately. The new "youth program" hasn't worked out too well for them either...

[annotatedbom]

One immediate problem is that the plates, as described by Joseph, would not even come close to fitting in Hyrum's writing box, where Joseph claims to have kept them locked up. Even the Church History Museum couldn't find a way to disguise the problem with the actual box, which they have on display:

If you stoop down and look at it edge-on you will see that even just the sealed portion extends about half way above box at the shallow end. Oops.

I remember reading about that display and thinking that it seemed so absurd that maybe there was more to it than most non-believers were making it out to be, but it’s something I haven’t looked into, so your assessment of the situation is kind of shocking to me. I’ve been mentally and spiritually out for more than a decade now, so it seems like it shouldn’t shock me, but the rabbit hole never ends.

Thanks for pointing this problem out!
A-BoM

[annotatedbom]

Over 100 lbs and not even a decent backpack to load it in. That would take a miracle to move all that over even terrain, let alone rivers, mountains, and jungle.

Like Hagoth said, tapir. Or, since even the Church doesn’t seem to follow Dr. Dan Peterson, et. al., down that trail, a horse. This annotation for 1 Ne 18:25 (starting at the second paragraph) gives you an idea of how the Church has treated such extraordinary claims as horses in the Americas during BoM times. I’d like to give them the benefit of a doubt In this one, but since their reference in this case was so obscure and more than 100 years old, it seems obviously disingenuous.

[Reuben]

But seriously, this week my question might be:
"Why were the golden plates needed when Joseph didn't actually use them for the translation?"

He did use them for the translation, but not the way you would expect. The sealed portion contained a wireless FTL router that connected the iStone and other holy artifacts to the Kolobian Internet.

It turns out Joseph never actually gave the plates back. President Nelson now uses them with the iStone to watch risque Kolobian reality shows, where the women wear nothing but robes of most exquisite whiteness, which are open so that you can see into their bosoms.

[annotatedbom]

Is LD$-Inc. really using "CFM" as an initialism to represent Come Follow Me???

I really don’t see what the big deal is with cubic feet per minute.

In all seriousness though, I’m naive enough (or boomer enough?) that I had no idea of the other abbreviation you’re referring to. Click bait and I didn’t even know

Oh, and I don’t see that the Church uses that abbreviation. That was all my doing.

Thanks for pointing out my faux pas!
[A-BoM walks away, humbled but a tad wiser]

A better focused Google search of the Church's site reveals the Church did use "CFM" at least some times to abbreviate for "Come Follow Me." This unfortunate example has the number "69" associated with the abbreviation:

You could use the picture on page 69 of *CFM.

[annotatedbom]

But seriously, this week my question might be:
"Why were the golden plates needed when Joseph didn't actually use them for the translation?"

He did use them for the translation, but not the way you would expect. The sealed portion contained a wireless FTL router that connected the iStone and other holy artifacts to the Kolobian Internet.

It turns out Joseph never actually gave the plates back. President Nelson now uses them with the iStone to watch risque Kolobian reality shows, where the women wear nothing but robes of most exquisite whiteness, which are open so that you can see into their bosoms.

Well, that explains it. Looks like I'll be going back to Church this Sunday. Glad I didn't resign yet.

[Arcturus]

Honorable mention
I thought I might ask something to get at the reliability of the Three and Eight Witnesses accounts, but I think it's a little more difficult to get your mind around the problems with them. But, if you feel prompted, maybe something like,
"If the witnesses are such good evidence, why don't we consider the witnesses for the plates of James Strang's 'Book of the Law of the Lord' as evidence for the book's truth?" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Strang)
Or, "Why don't we believe the witnesses who testified of the supernatural events associated with Ellen White's (prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventist Church) visions?"

This is awesome annotatedbom, thanks for sharing. I'll definitely use this angle in future conversations if the whole witness thing pops up.

[wtfluff]

A better focused Google search of the Church's site reveals the Church did use "CFM" at least some times to abbreviate for "Come Follow Me." This unfortunate example has the number "69" associated with the abbreviation:

You could use the picture on page 69 of *CFM.

Good-Golly... I will never be able to hear a reference to "Come Follow Me" without giggling from now on...

Honorable mention
I thought I might ask something to get at the reliability of the Three and Eight Witnesses accounts, but I think it's a little more difficult to get your mind around the problems with them. But, if you feel prompted, maybe something like,
"If the witnesses are such good evidence, why don't we consider the witnesses for the plates of James Strang's 'Book of the Law of the Lord' as evidence for the book's truth?" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Strang)
Or, "Why don't we believe the witnesses who testified of the supernatural events associated with Ellen White's (prophetess of the Seventh Day Adventist Church) visions?"

This is awesome annotatedbom, thanks for sharing. I'll definitely use this angle in future conversations if the whole witness thing pops up.

Another "not very useful" truth that I like to point out about the witnesses: According to most of the accounts we have, the "golden plates" were never actually used in the "translation" of the Book of MORmON that we have today, only the 116 pages.

So... What good are "witnesses" of source material that was NEVER USED?

[Arcturus]

Another "not very useful" truth that I like to point out about the witnesses: According to most of the accounts we have, the "golden plates" were never actually used in the "translation" of the Book of MORmON that we have today, only the 116 pages.

So... What good are "witnesses" of source material that was NEVER USED?

Thanks wtfluff. Will definitely use this as well. Awesome point.