I choose love, full stop.

[alas]

Skin color is not the same as deviated sexual preference. If you don’t understand that, then you struggle with basic logic, or maybe you haven’t given up the “blind belief” from the cult - which requires ignoring inconvenient facts.

Just like Blashyrkh, I know you won't answer the question as asked, but I'm still stupid enough to ask it:

Both Blashyrkh and Newme: WHEN DID YOU CHOOSE YOUR HETEROSEXUALITY?


People don't choose their sexuality any more than they choose their skin color. Full Stop.

Unless of course Blashyrkh and Newme DID choose their sexuality. (Again, I doubt either of you will actually answer that question.)

And now I'll just enjoy the silence...

So, you’re saying pedophiles - adults who sexually prefer children - are born that way? Rapists also - can’t help it - they were born to rape?

How ridiculous to think anyone is born with a deviated sexual preference! People do choose what they focus on and do. Research suggests many who have acquired homosexual preferences have been sexually abused - some at such a young age - it feels inborn but isn’t.

I was raped and sexually abused, & for a bit, I hated men - they made me sick. So I wondered about women. I didn’t follow up on that nor on a woman who made a pass at me, but I can understand how after having horrible experiences with men, some women change their sexual preference. Men can be similar - though there are other factors like the Oedipus complex (mama’s boy - too close to mom).

So yeah, I have chosen my sexuality. We all do. We are born with brains that are only 1/4 developed so we can better adapt to environmental influences. The homosexual activists stated their goals involved lying, justifying if they lied enough times and enough people believed, then even when the truth was revealed, many would reject it. My child’s AP psychology book still has a study claiming homosexuality was inborn, even though that study has been discredited. The study involved looking at cadaver brains who were homosexual but failed to note they died of AIDS which changes the brain.

I’m sorry but fact is fact. Just as I have a hard time respecting cult members who deny facts even when they’re plain as day, I also struggle to respect people who deny inconvenient facts related to homosexuality. Even worse when they shame or shun me or others for daring to state truths they don’t like.

Lots of false ideas here.

Pedophiles are not born that way. That is learned behavior according to psychologists. So are fetishes, such as finding shoes sexy. I should not have to give you a course in psychology because it is your responsibility to educate yourself. If one identical twin is a pedophile, his twin is no more likely to be a pedophile than a random stranger. That is what tells intelligent people that being a pedophile is learned behavior, not inborn.

But same sex attraction is inborn by about 60%-80% compared to maybe 40%-20% environment. There are genes that indicate a person’s likelihood of being gay. Identical twins are often both gay, or both straight, much higher than fraternal twins.

Yes, there is some environmental influence, but that mostly effects people who are actually bi. And yes, there are a small percentage who choose, but they are mostly bi. So, if you did choose, then you are probably bi sexual and could have gone either way.

Unlike we usually think of it, it isn’t binary with people being gay or straight. Most of us are kinda in between. But it is what is called a bi-modal curve, with a hump toward straight and a smaller hump toward gay. So, those people in the middle of that curve can “choose” to live gay, straight, or bi. But if you test them by checking what they respond to sexually, they respond to both men and women. So, they are actually bisexual. But if you are straight, then you don’t respond sexually to same sex pictures/porn. And if you are gay, you don’t respond at all to opposite sex pictures/porn. And if you are bi, or somewhere in between, you respond to both. That part of it is inborn.

Yes, there are studies that said one thing or another that have been debunked. The cadaver brain thing has been debunked. But there is genetic evidence that is new and has not been debunked. The overwhelming evidence of many studies is that being gay is inborn.

[Red Ryder]

I still lean towards born with vs choice but
here’s a new study published this year that is interesting.

Massive Study Finds No Single Genetic Cause of Same-Sex Sexual Behavior
Analysis of half a million people suggests genetics may have a limited contribution to sexual orientation
By Sara Reardon on August 29, 2019

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -behavior/

Now, a new study claims to dispel the notion that a single gene or handful of genes make a person prone to same-sex behavior. The analysis, which examined the genomes of nearly half a million men and women, found that although genetics are certainly involved in who people choose to have sex with, there are no specific genetic predictors. Yet some researchers question whether the analysis, which looked at genes associated with sexual activity rather than attraction, can draw any real conclusions about sexual orientation.
“The message should remain the same that this is a complex behavior that genetics definitely plays a part in,” said study co-author Fah Sathirapongsasuti, a computational biologist at genetic testing company 23andMe in Mountain View, Calif., during a press conference.

[alas]

I still lean towards born with vs choice but
here’s a new study published this year that is interesting.

Massive Study Finds No Single Genetic Cause of Same-Sex Sexual Behavior
Analysis of half a million people suggests genetics may have a limited contribution to sexual orientation
By Sara Reardon on August 29, 2019

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -behavior/

Now, a new study claims to dispel the notion that a single gene or handful of genes make a person prone to same-sex behavior. The analysis, which examined the genomes of nearly half a million men and women, found that although genetics are certainly involved in who people choose to have sex with, there are no specific genetic predictors. Yet some researchers question whether the analysis, which looked at genes associated with sexual activity rather than attraction, can draw any real conclusions about sexual orientation.
“The message should remain the same that this is a complex behavior that genetics definitely plays a part in,” said study co-author Fah Sathirapongsasuti, a computational biologist at genetic testing company 23andMe in Mountain View, Calif., during a press conference.

This is very predictable from what we know just looking at identical twins. Being gay is not purely genetic. But it is still largely genetic. There are specific genes that have been identified that tend to lead to being gay. But, the identical twins may have a different sexual orientation. Duh. We knew this 600 years ago after the first study to look at identical twins. It even if you take identical twins raised apart, they are more likely to have the same sexual orientation than not. This right there says it is more genetic than say schizophrenia, or diabetes.

But any study that takes behavior into account is going to be skewed because behavior is a choice. If a gay guy decides to marry a woman, is he still gay? Yes. But his behavior is going to say no. You cannot weed out the idea that behavior is a choice, even if sexual orientation is not. So, if you test behavior you will get skewed results.

With the tests that determine what kind of porn the guy responds to, you get more accurate results of if he is really gay, or gay pretending to be straight, or whatever. But then you have the religious guys who opt out of such a test because it involves looking at porn. Which is going to skew the results. More of them will probably marry and make some woman feel unloved, but they are still gay.

It is like saying that height is not purely genetic because no one or specific set of genes causes a person to be tall. And identical twins can end up different heights. There is genotype and phenotype. Then there is chosen behavior.

Just because it is complicated, doesn’t mean it is not in born.

[moksha]

Both Blashyrkh and Newme: WHEN DID YOU CHOOSE YOUR HETEROSEXUALITY?

Occasionally when overstocked, ZCMI used to have heavily discounted sales. Sometimes during polygamy season, they used to have buy-backs of previously sold orientations.

[Newme]

This subject doesn't impact me personally. The problem I have with it is a tiny minority demanding a majority change their beliefs. Let's take any subject that any group believes in. Should we demand that Muslims change their offensive beliefs? Southern Baptist? Catholics? Should coffee drinkers unite and demand the church renounce the WofW? How about single members demand the church renounce the belief in eternal marriage? I'm sure my 50-year-old sister feels bad that she never married despite the commandment to do so. Let's demand an end to missions because they make those weaklings who can't leave mommy for two years feel bad. I could go on and on. Let's get rid of all core beliefs of all church's because in the end someone's feelings are hurt when they violate the standards of their choice method of worship.

Yeah - the double standard seems to fly by unnoticed by most engaging in it.
“You must respect me - but I don’t have to respect you.”
Rights without responsibilities.

The Church changes in response to pressure. It always has. Give me one good reason why disaffected members can’t be the ones providing that pressure and motivating those changes. Sam Young forced the Church to change - in a small way, and not nearly as much as it needs to, but he did it. Explain to me why he shouldn’t have.

Let’s apply your argument to slavery. Should the northern states have just minded their own business and allowed the southern states to perpetuate slavery?

What about the Holocaust? The rest of the world turned a blind eye to what was happening to Jews in Nazi Germany in the late 1930s - is it your position that was the correct thing for the rest of the world to do?

When I see a bully beating a kid up in the schoolyard, should I respect the bully’s beliefs and mind my own business? When the Church is the bully and the members are the ones being beat up, should I respect the bully’s beliefs and mind my own business?

Just because an organization has a belief, it does not follow that belief must be respected, nor does it follow that people inside or outside that organization should not be advocating for change in said organization.

Partly what makes me suspicious about people who demand change based on homosexuality is that they don’t give a shit about others - only those who it’s popular to give a shit about. That, and also they’re encouraging behavior known to be harmful.

Who cares about children of polygamy families who are still denied baptism? Where are the polygamy pride parades? Statistically, close to 1,000,000,000 people are so poor, they starve and the church steals tithes intended for them (Deut 14:28-29) - who cares about them???

People show care not because they really care - they just want to look caring and so they care for those who it’s popular to care for and ignore others. And often in their supposed “caring” - they hurt others, and deny inconvenient facts. That makes me not trust them - as much or even more than cult members who are more naive about their mob-mentality.

[Newme]

So yeah, I have chosen my sexuality. We all do.

Wow... I'm not sure what to say, except: You are the first person I've ever "talked" to who claims to have actually made a conscious decision as to your sexuality, so I guess you've updated my worldview a tiny bit.

I’m sorry but fact is fact. Just as I have a hard time respecting cult members who deny facts even when they’re plain as day, I also struggle to respect people who deny inconvenient facts related to homosexuality. Even worse when they shame or shun me or others for daring to state truths they don’t like.

As to your "facts" and "truths" and "we all do" statements, I don't think I can agree with you there. It's not possible for me to extrapolate that because Newme chose her sexuality, more than 7.5 billion other humans on the planet are exactly like Newme, and made the same conscious decision.

Good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

There are a couple basic facts that cannot be denied:
1) Children need a mother and father to be conceived.
2) The anus is not designed for sex but for poop to exit.


Children should have the right to not be legally denied a mother or father.
Yet, those supporting homosexual “marriage,” do not respect this right, despite overwhelming evidence proving the importance of both mothers and fathers, and proving that children have more problems when raised by homosexual parents.

Child of lesbian couple speaks out against gay marriage
http://www.dennyburk.com/child-of-lesbi ... -marriage/

Not only do we each need a mother and father TO EXIST, we also need them to thrive in this world...

"Why Children Need Both A Mother And A Father"
https://www.focusonthefamily.com/social ... -need-both

"Why Children Need a Male and Female Parent” - Glenn T. Stanton
http://www.wordfoundations.com/wp-conte ... tanton.pdf

"Mothers' and Fathers' Socializing Behaviors in Three Contexts: Links with Children's Peer Competence"
Pettit, Gregory S.; Brown, Elizabeth Glyn; Mize, Jacquelyn; Lindsey, Eric
https://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ563106

“Every child need a mum” – A gay man speaks out against gay marriage"
“I don’t want to see children being engineered for same-sex couples where there is either a mom missing or a dad missing,” Mainwaring explained. “Somebody needs to stand up for the rights and needs of children in an age when the selfishness of adults seems to be trumping those rights.”
https://ynaija.com/every-child-need-a-m ... -marriage/

Kids of Gay Parents More Likely to Suffer Mental Problems, Study Shows
https://www.charismanews.com/us/48331-k ... tudy-shows
"Researchers found that 17 percent of children with same-sex parents had serious emotional problems compared to 7 percent of children with a mom and dad."

Study: Children of Parents in Same-Sex Relationships Face Greater Risks
The results reveal numerous, consistent differences, especially between the children of women who have had a lesbian relationship and those with still-married (heterosexual) biological parents. The results are typically robust in multivariate contexts as well, suggesting far greater diversity in lesbian-parent household experiences than convenience-sample studies of lesbian families have revealed.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9X12000610

"According to data from the New Family Structures Study, led by Mark Regnerus at the University of Texas at Austin, children raised by homosexual parents are dramatically more likely than peers raised by married heterosexual parents to suffer from a host of social problems. Among them are strong tendencies, as adults, to exhibit poor impulse control; suffer from depression and thoughts of suicide; need mental health therapy; identify themselves as homosexual; choose cohabitation; be unfaithful to partners; contract sexually transmitted diseases; be sexually molested; have lower income levels; drink to get drunk; and smoke tobacco and marijuana."

Adults Raised by Gay Couples Speak Out Against Gay ‘Marriage’ in Federal Court
“I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her court brief.  “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk.”
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/la ... eral-court

Michael Glatze, ex homosexual and ex-“gay rights” leader said, “Homosexuality is death and I choose life.” Those practicing homosexuality - especially men - have much higher rates of STDS, mental illness, AIDS and other health complications associated with attempting to misuse their anatomy.







The American Psychological Association originally defined homosexuality as a disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-II (DSM-II), then, was harassed into changing the definition. "Led by radicals like Franklin Kameny, pro-sodomy activists attacked psychiatrists across America, as Newsweek describes: “But even more than the government, it is the psychiatrists who have experienced the full rage of the homosexual activists. Over the past two years, gay-lib organizations have repeatedly disrupted medical meetings, and three months ago—in the movements most aggressive demonstration so far—a group of 30 militants broke into a meeting of the American Psychiatric Association in Washington, where they turned the staid proceedings into near chaos..."
https://www.scribd.com/doc/123568250/The-Born-Gay-Hoax

So, the definition of homosexuality was changed from being a disorder to being normalized, not because of scientific research, but as a political move by harassing homosexual lobbyists.

The truth found in undeniable statistics is that actions based on homosexual practice make it a disorder (state of confusion) and even one that causes suffering by such confusion:

• 1. Homosexuality is not ever truly sex but involves fetishes, because sex involves the sexual organs of each, and homosexuality must resort to subsitutes... fetishes. (Fetish: any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation. ) Anal sex is such a fetish. Some fetishes cause no harm, but anal sex can cause anal fissures, anal cancer, colon rupture and bacterial infections.
  
  2. According to the United States Center for Disease Control (US CDC), those with homosexual practices are many times more likely to contract STDs than heterosexuals.
  https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
  
  3. According to the United States Center for Disease Control (US CDC), those with homosexual practices are many times more likely to contract AIDS than heterosexuals.‪ ‬
  https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html
  
  4. Also According to the United States Center for Disease Control (US CDC), those who engage in homosexual practices are more likely to have mental illness. Research also has found that, compared to other men, MSM are at increased risk of: Major depression during adolescence and adulthood; Bipolar disorder; and Generalized anxiety disorder during adolescence and adulthood. MSM are also at greater risk for other health threats that often occur in conjunction with mental health problems (i.e., co-morbidities). These include greater use of illegal drugs and a greater risk for suicide.
  
  5. Most babies are born healthy, without disorders, including without homosexual preferences. At birth, our brains are only 25% developed. This makes us less intelligent at birth than many other mamals, however it ends up in our best interest because along with more caregiving support, we are better able to adapt to environmental influences. Under various circumstances, some such adaptations result in the development of homosexual preferences. There is no such thing as a gay gene - as mentioned in the first link above.
  
  Evidence shows that the development of homosexual practices are more linked to environmental influences than to biology. Science does not support the claim that homosexuality is genetic.. Even Homosexual Researchers Debunk ‘Born Gay’ Urban Legend ‪
  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/724179/posts
  
  "1. No research has found provable biological or genetic differences between heterosexuals & homosexuals that weren't caused by their behavior. 2. In 2 large studies conducted... Homosexuals overwhelmingly believed their feelings and behavior were the result of social or environmental influences. (Note that the focus of homosexual fetishes is limited to select countries, globally.) 3. Older homosexuals often approach the young 4. Early homosexual experiences influence adult patters of behavior 5. Sexual conduct is influenced by cultural factors - esp. religious convictions 6. Many change their sexual preferences 7. There are many ex-homosexuals"

The homosexual herd is trying to push its way into the public - to make this disorder that statistically proves to be harmful, be accepted. Don't fall for it. Love people, not harmful behavior. IT IS CRUEL TO ENCOURAGE BEHAVIOR KNOWN TO BE HARMFUL.

• "Tolerance applies to persons, but never to truth. Intolerance applies to truth, but never to persons. Tolerance applies to the erring; intolerance to the error." -F. Sheen

[wtfluff]

I was never accepted amongst the Utah LDS community because of my Slayer t-shirts and long hair.

Interesting. Did those same folks try to deny you basic human rights because you wore Slayer t-shirts?

And since you're saying that there should be no dissent in LD$-Inc., what do you think about the "Law of Common Consent?"

[wtfluff]

So yeah, I have chosen my sexuality. We all do.

Wow... I'm not sure what to say, except: You are the first person I've ever "talked" to who claims to have actually made a conscious decision as to your sexuality, so I guess you've updated my worldview a tiny bit.

I’m sorry but fact is fact. Just as I have a hard time respecting cult members who deny facts even when they’re plain as day, I also struggle to respect people who deny inconvenient facts related to homosexuality. Even worse when they shame or shun me or others for daring to state truths they don’t like.

As to your "facts" and "truths" and "we all do" statements, I don't think I can agree with you there. It's not possible for me to extrapolate that because Newme chose her sexuality, more than 7.5 billion other humans on the planet are exactly like Newme, and made the same conscious decision.

Good afternoon, good evening, and good night.

<GIANT SNIP>
Don't want to quote all of that, just a reference point...

Wow... I'm not sure how my simple reply lead to that, but there you go.

Sorry to everyone else in the thread. I think we knew where it was headed. Honestly I was trying to avoid it.

Please don't expect another reply from me, Newme, I'm done. I agree that you and I disagree.

[Red Ryder]

Wow... I'm not sure how my simple reply lead to that, but there you go.

Sorry to everyone else in the thread. I think we knew where it was headed. Honestly I was trying to avoid it.

Please don't expect another reply from me, Newme, I'm done. I agree that you and I disagree.

I don’t want NOM to be an echo chamber and I don’t believe in censorship or banning people for their opinions. However, I’m disappointed that this post has turned into a dumpster fire.

I see various points on both sides of this issue and now that I’m educated on Newme’s biological designed “exit only anus that can’t be used for sexual pleasure” I have to point out that the mouth was designed for eating food but also does a damn great job of providing sexual pleasure. Who knows, maybe the anus does too?

...and Slayer rocks!

Just saying...

[Red Ryder]

No need for an altar-cation.

[Not Buying It]

Yeah - the double standard seems to fly by unnoticed by most engaging in it.
“You must respect me - but I don’t have to respect you.”
Rights without responsibilities.

The Church changes in response to pressure. It always has. Give me one good reason why disaffected members can’t be the ones providing that pressure and motivating those changes. Sam Young forced the Church to change - in a small way, and not nearly as much as it needs to, but he did it. Explain to me why he shouldn’t have.

Let’s apply your argument to slavery. Should the northern states have just minded their own business and allowed the southern states to perpetuate slavery?

What about the Holocaust? The rest of the world turned a blind eye to what was happening to Jews in Nazi Germany in the late 1930s - is it your position that was the correct thing for the rest of the world to do?

When I see a bully beating a kid up in the schoolyard, should I respect the bully’s beliefs and mind my own business? When the Church is the bully and the members are the ones being beat up, should I respect the bully’s beliefs and mind my own business?

Just because an organization has a belief, it does not follow that belief must be respected, nor does it follow that people inside or outside that organization should not be advocating for change in said organization.

Partly what makes me suspicious about people who demand change based on homosexuality is that they don’t give a shit about others - only those who it’s popular to give a shit about. That, and also they’re encouraging behavior known to be harmful.

Who cares about children of polygamy families who are still denied baptism? Where are the polygamy pride parades? Statistically, close to 1,000,000,000 people are so poor, they starve and the church steals tithes intended for them (Deut 14:28-29) - who cares about them???

People show care not because they really care - they just want to look caring and so they care for those who it’s popular to care for and ignore others. And often in their supposed “caring” - they hurt others, and deny inconvenient facts. That makes me not trust them - as much or even more than cult members who are more naive about their mob-mentality.

Look, you are welcome to express your opinion, however much I personally disagree with it. But what, exactly, makes you think you know everything I do and don't care about and why I do or don't care about it?

[wtfluff]

Wow... I'm not sure how my simple reply lead to that, but there you go.

Sorry to everyone else in the thread. I think we knew where it was headed. Honestly I was trying to avoid it.

Please don't expect another reply from me, Newme, I'm done. I agree that you and I disagree.

I don’t want NOM to be an echo chamber and I don’t believe in censorship or banning people for their opinions. However, I’m disappointed that this post has turned into a dumpster fire.

I see various points on both sides of this issue and now that I’m educated on Newme’s biological designed “exit only anus that can’t be used for sexual pleasure” I have to point out that the mouth was designed for eating food but also does a damn great job of providing sexual pleasure. Who knows, maybe the anus does too?

...and Slayer rocks!

Just saying...

Well Dear Cowboy... Methinks you just tossed a bit of petrol on the Dumpster Fire.

[wtfluff]

I was never accepted amongst the Utah LDS community because of my Slayer t-shirts and long hair.

Interesting. Did those same folks try to deny you basic human rights because you wore Slayer t-shirts?

And since you're saying that there should be no dissent in LD$-Inc., what do you think about the "Law of Common Consent?"

What a total b.s. question! What power does the LDS church wield that they can deny anyone any basic right. As far as I can see gay people have as many civil rights and straight people. No one has a right to anything regarding a private church. Everyone can get married now. I now serve in the Army with gays and lesbians. This whole idea that gays and lesbians are now discriminated against is utter garbage. Just look at the last pride parade SLC. There are thousands of people in what is arguably the most conservative state cheering them on. When I was a kid it was a mocking term to be labeled as gay. Now, according to my wife who has taught high school for 12 years, gays and lesbians are the most popular kids in school... in Utah. So let's stop this victimization of gays and lesbians. For heavens sake the LDS Church invited the Washington DC Gay Men's Choir sing at the visitors center. That's some hardcore bigotry right there. I am sorry that it offends you that some people have refused to worship at your altar of homosexuality. Some people find homosexuality offensive and vial. Some people find me offensive and vile. I have moved on. So should you.

Oops... Sorry for such a "STUPID" question Oh Enlightened One. Was that second question just as utterly STUPID?

"Altar" of homosexuality? Seriously: Where to I get one of those? I'm sure it would be an absolutely FABULOUS altar, and much more fun than any other altar I have ever encountered.



And of course: Why would I expect any different sort of answer?

[Newme]

Blashyrkh,
You’re not alone in being shunned as a teen for appearances. I also listened to a variety of music - metal, rap etc.

Ever hear of Jim Breuer? He explains a likely scenerio not too far into the future regarding heavy metal...
https://youtu.be/ijV9Rt-rQoc

[moksha]

LDS people are also free to exclude whomever they choose to.

While LDS leaders had chosen this exclusionary route for those of African, Aboriginal, New Guinean, etc... descent, they have since changed their mind.

[Jeffret]

What I do care about is someone demanding that a group of free people accept something that they think is wrong.

To answer an earlier relevant question, yes I do think Catholics should change something that I think is wrong. I'm convinced that their belief that it's okay for priests to molest little boys is wrong. And the belief that it's more important to shuffle priests around and hide their sins, allowing them to continue abusing, than to correct them is wrong. Apparently Catholics, at least among the leadership, think it is wrong to let information out about abusive priests and to remove the priests from their source of power. I'm not unique in demanding that they accept something that they think is wrong.

How are LGBT issues any different?

An easy answer is that these Catholics are engaging in criminal behavior so that's different. But that's really not different at all. The law is just a codification of what a sufficiently powerful group (majority?) thinks is wrong. Before Lawrence v. Texas was decided in 2003, many gays engaged in illegal, which was why Lawrence and Garner were arrested. Besides what I'm talking about is the belief that it is more important to hide the abusive priests.

I moved to Utah when I was 13. I was never accepted amongst the Utah LDS community because of my Slayer t-shirts and long hair. I had parents forbid their daughters from dating me and their sons from hanging out with me and a Bishop who wouldn't even let me pass the sacrament until I cut my hair despite the fact that I was indeed "worthy" to do so. I got over it.

I'm sorry you had trouble fitting in as a teen and glad you got over it.

But isn't this just allowing abuse to propagate by doing nothing? It's easy but it's not helpful.

Going back to my Catholic example, we can just tell the victims of priestly abuse to "get over it". Richard Dawkins has said just that for what he considers mild forms of pedophilia. Victims of child sexual abuse in British boarding schools or by priests should just get over it.

It's not a stance I can support, though. Allowing the abuse to continue and telling the victims to get over it is certainly one approach. I prefer to try and improve things so that children don't have to continue enduring that and just get over it. Nor do I think the victims shouldn't receive compensation for the misdeeds of the Catholic leaders.

[Jeffret]

I have moved on. So should you.

So far you're not sticking that flounce very well. I'm not seeing how you've moved on. I accept that I'm still interested in this topic, but for someone who has moved on, you seem awfully concerned about it.

And for someone who is mightily concerned about, "demanding that a group of free people accept something that they think is wrong" you're sure committed to telling free people what they should accept and do.

[alas]

For me, being involved in the ways I want the world to change for the benefit of us all is the difference between being out there fighting to make the world a better place and hiding under a rock and not caring that people get hurt.

And Blashyrkh, I was also not accepted by Utah culture, not because I moved to Utah from out of state where styles are different, but because my family was poor and I was wearing my big brother’s hand me downs...in the late 50s when girls had to dress like girls, in ruffles and lace, there I was in a worn out boys shirt with my skirt. I could probably compare blow by blow with you to see who got hurt the most, but that helps nobody. I could also crawl under my rock and whine because why should I try to change anybody else. But that also does no good.

So, first of all I try to understand and I try to be understood. You have refused to answer question in my attempts to understand your position, and as often as people here have tried to understand you, or get you to understand us, you just keep repeating yourself. So, you are just trying to force others to change and I can’t even respect that. Your approach is different than mine. So what? Get over it.

[Jeffret]

Your approach is different than mine. So what? Get over it.

[wtfluff]

I have moved on. So should you.

So far you're not sticking that flounce very well. I'm not seeing how you've moved on. I accept that I'm still interested in this topic, but for someone who has moved on, you seem awfully concerned about it.

And for someone who is mightily concerned about, "demanding that a group of free people accept something that they think is wrong" you're sure committed to telling free people what they should accept and do.

Irony... It's completely lost on some folks, eh?