GA Stipend is modest compared to executive compensation

[alas]

The more I have thought about this, the more I realize that the part that bothers me most is that they ask us peons to sacrifice so much and yet think they are above having to sacrifice. They ask missionaries to leave their education and pay their own way to do proselytizing and they ask senior missionaries to give up their retirement and often live above their retirement income by pulling money out of savings, sometimes to work for free for the profit making arm of the church. They ask bishops to put in what amounts to a second full time job without pay and don't care that families suffer. I have seen two bishops divorce just after they are released because their wife felt unloved. It asks people to pay tithing before rent or groceries or medicine. My in laws were paying tithing but could not pay for medicine. Did the church compensate? No, the church said "ask your children to help." So we gave in laws money, while supporting a missionary, while paying tithing. They demand extreme sacrifice from members, while they live high on the hog.

Exactly. Hypocrisy so clear that only those in deep mind-control leader worship, cannot see it for what it is. We're asked regularly if we are a "worthy full-tithe payer" and if so we can serve and enter the temple etc.... but if not, too bad. Yet, what accountability do they have about their money that they gather? None. Not one legitimate annual tithing settlement.

What is most disturbing is when you've been to really dirt poor countries where people are sick and dying because of extreme poverty and realize they are being denied what is rightfully theirs. According to the WHO, about 1/7 (1,000,000,000) of our brothers and sisters are chronically hungry. Often governments do not help their poor - the poor desperately need help from others. This is the primary purpose of TITHING. Deut. 14:28-29 states that about 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to those in need.

If you pick up lds scripture books and look in the topic guide or dictionary under "tithing" -you won't see that scripture. Why? Because lds church leaders disobey it. They pretend it's not part of the law of tithing. Although church money is kept dark and secret, Oaks admitted that NO TITHES go to those in need, and commanded members to pay extra for that. That's wrong. They're robbing the poor and indirectly causing many to suffer and die because of their stealing money from the "least of these."

I imagine if I were a mother of children who were starving to death (as many are). When I think of people like that, I feel the need to let members know of this horrible financial corruption in the church - and suggest they redirect their tithes in better, more honest and financially transparent ways. http://www.charitynavigator.org/

Yes, tithing is supposed to go to the poor, not be invested and then use the interest off that tithing to build huge shopping malls and high end apartments. Meanwhile, the poor are asked to sacrifice more than they are really capable of, and families give up so much time to keeping the church going, and our apostles vote themselves a hefty pay check.

My son went to Brazil on his mission, and during one very honest moment he told me he had a really hard time teaching the poor because he saw how poor they were and yet knew that they would be asked to give up food for their malnourished children in order to pay tithing. He honestly did not want them to join because of the demand for so much in tithing from those who have nothing. His American companions felt that eternal reward was worth malnourished children and questioned his faith. He in turn questioned their compassion and their Christlike qualities. Meanwhile his native companions admitted joining the church so that they could have two year of enough food paid for by Americans through the missionary fund. One even admitted that after his mission he had no intention of staying in the church. All he wanted was the two years of free food and living in a decent home rather than a cardboard and cinder block shack. My son felt guilty coming home to our middle class home and plenty of food.

These people should be paying 1/10 of their supplus, as tithing was supposed to be, not one tenth of not enough. And if they have no surplus because they cannot even support their family on what they make, then the church should be helping them, not demanding that they support fancy malls and old men getting rich off the church.

[MerrieMiss]

I spent Sacrament Meeting reading BCC’s two threads on this topic (F&T was truly mind numbing). I was rather disgusted by the comments to both posts. One comment struck me as particularly thoughtful and was ignored by most of the other commenters:

This isn’t going to be the straw that broke the camel’s back of my testimony. But I will say that both the post and this discussion make me feel odd as a mother struggling to raise a young family on around $25,000 a year that my husband works long hours at a physically demanding apprenticeship program to earn.
Meanwhile we are literally hoping and praying that the new administration won’t take away our ACA health insurance before our next baby is born in a few months.
You don’t need to look to the third world to find members who sacrifice a lot to faithfully scrape together that 10% every month. I don’t know quite what to think about all of the shrugging over the sum of 120,000 a year. I’m not suggesting it’s obscene, but…
Maybe one day I won’t be flooded with hormones and spending a lot of long nights worrying about how close my little family is to the ragged edge. Maybe then I will be able to feel only warm and fuzzy feelings about how well we take care of these men who have dedicated their lives to the church in this most visible and public of ways.

I wonder if this is what will really get to people about the salary/stipend/whatever. There are many people making less than $120,000, both in the US and throughout the world. It isn’t so much about whether the money is appropriate for the job they do or whether they were honest about it (those are big concerns) but the cog dis to the people in the church who see how much they sacrifice and how they live while others don’t have to. To me, this was one of the biggest problems with the Second Anointing. It really is a good old boys club and I’m funding it.

I have one sibling who is TBM. He’s always struggled financially (in part because he got married and had kids WAY before he should have), and I know he’s been struggling a lot with the church recently. I can see how something like this could really wear on him and his family.

[MerrieMiss]

After a week, my husband finally asked what I thought about the stipends. I knew he knew about it (he left a news-link browser open) but I decided to leave it alone. We talked about it last night and he wasn’t pleased about the money. He said he always knew they got paid (I knew too so I believe him on that) but he had no idea it was so much. He assumed it was more of a median wage for the state of Utah.

He didn’t agree that there were people who didn’t know they got paid, until I pointed out that the church narrative always talks about unpaid clergy. I pulled up LDS.org and searched “paid clergy” – he was surprised how many times church materials assert that no one is ever paid.

And we also talked about people who don’t have a lot, like members in very poor countries who are expected to pay tithing and may forego food, shelter, transportation, etc, just so someone can live on $120,000, not to mention whatever else.

I ended the conversation and went to bed. I had no desire to rant and argue and wear the topic out. The wheels were turning, and for me, that’s enough.

[well wandered]

I had a thought today that really got me flustered and upset.

So, clergy are considered self-employed when it comes to SS tax, meaning they pay the full 12.4%. As I mentioned before, most churches take off as much as they can justify through "living expenses". Again, in the case of my priest, we put that at $18,000. Sometimes, $18,000 seems a little high for me but it is an agreed upon number in our budget meetings.

So, by paying $120,000 in living expense stipend, not salary, they are essentially getting out of $14,694 in social security tax. And that their "living expenses" are actually higher than the bloody cap on SS taxable income.

While it probably isn't illegal, it is, IMHO, a bad use of the tax law to get out of paying your fair share. I have to pay SS tax, and if I made that, I would still have to pay $7,347 while they pay $0 in SS tax. You'll notice from the pay stub that he doesn't pay SS tax.

Over 85 general authorities, that is $1,102,050 in SS taxes their aren't paying.

When housing, taxes, food, insurance, medical care, transportation, utilities, insurance, tuition, and entertainment are provided at will free of charge, $120,000 tax-free is quite a lot of money. Even for someone that has to pay all of those out of pocket, $120,000 is still plenty, but for someone that has all expense categories in a standard budget zeroed out, that's quite a surplus.

The biggest issue for me isn't about money- It's just paper, in this case someone else's. It's that this is another gut punch that most members are in a space where they take no issue being deceived and being deceitful, whether it's small issues like this or large ones. It's another reminder of how far conscience has been replaced by some sort of Mormon social conscience.

[Korihor]

The more I've thought about this subject the more upset I've become.

But I truly doubt I've surprised anyone.

[document]

The more I've thought about this subject the more upset I've become.

But I truly doubt I've surprised anyone.

I'm shocked, SHOCKED!

[document]

$120,000 tax-free is quite a lot of money.

From what I wrote, it isn't tax-free it is SS tax free.

From what our friendly tax lawyer wrote, I probably wrong on that as well.

[Corsair]

The more I've thought about this subject the more upset I've become.

But I truly doubt I've surprised anyone.

We were just waiting for your avatar to change.

[Newme]

Exactly. Hypocrisy so clear that only those in deep mind-control leader worship, cannot see it for what it is. We're asked regularly if we are a "worthy full-tithe payer" and if so we can serve and enter the temple etc.... but if not, too bad. Yet, what accountability do they have about their money that they gather? None. Not one legitimate annual tithing settlement.

What is most disturbing is when you've been to really dirt poor countries where people are sick and dying because of extreme poverty and realize they are being denied what is rightfully theirs. According to the WHO, about 1/7 (1,000,000,000) of our brothers and sisters are chronically hungry. Often governments do not help their poor - the poor desperately need help from others. This is the primary purpose of TITHING. Deut. 14:28-29 states that about 1/3 of TITHES are to be given to those in need.

If you pick up lds scripture books and look in the topic guide or dictionary under "tithing" -you won't see that scripture. Why? Because lds church leaders disobey it. They pretend it's not part of the law of tithing. Although church money is kept dark and secret, Oaks admitted that NO TITHES go to those in need, and commanded members to pay extra for that. That's wrong. They're robbing the poor and indirectly causing many to suffer and die because of their stealing money from the "least of these."

I imagine if I were a mother of children who were starving to death (as many are). When I think of people like that, I feel the need to let members know of this horrible financial corruption in the church - and suggest they redirect their tithes in better, more honest and financially transparent ways. http://www.charitynavigator.org/

Yes, tithing is supposed to go to the poor, not be invested and then use the interest off that tithing to build huge shopping malls and high end apartments. Meanwhile, the poor are asked to sacrifice more than they are really capable of, and families give up so much time to keeping the church going, and our apostles vote themselves a hefty pay check.

My son went to Brazil on his mission, and during one very honest moment he told me he had a really hard time teaching the poor because he saw how poor they were and yet knew that they would be asked to give up food for their malnourished children in order to pay tithing. He honestly did not want them to join because of the demand for so much in tithing from those who have nothing. His American companions felt that eternal reward was worth malnourished children and questioned his faith. He in turn questioned their compassion and their Christlike qualities. Meanwhile his native companions admitted joining the church so that they could have two year of enough food paid for by Americans through the missionary fund. One even admitted that after his mission he had no intention of staying in the church. All he wanted was the two years of free food and living in a decent home rather than a cardboard and cinder block shack. My son felt guilty coming home to our middle class home and plenty of food.

These people should be paying 1/10 of their supplus, as tithing was supposed to be, not one tenth of not enough. And if they have no surplus because they cannot even support their family on what they make, then the church should be helping them, not demanding that they support fancy malls and old men getting rich off the church.

I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, but who knows - maybe someone outside the choir will hear.

You are so right, Alas - and you explained it well - with good points.
I'll just add to it with the most obvious evidence of how the lds leaders are wrong in how they collect tithes...

IE:
2 men earn the same income.
1 man lives at home, his parents pay all his bills, so all of his income is "increase" and so when he's tithed on income, it's also based on increase.
2nd man is sole provider of a family of 9 and after paying all his bills has NOTHING left, yet the church demand him to pay the same as the other man, thereby the church CREATES poverty rather than helping alleviate it.
This is really unfair and unChristlike - it's robbing from the poor.
Moreover, IMO, money is not even the spiritual monetary system - love is.

This ONE aspect of the church is so obviously EVIL - that it bothers me that so many go along with it as if it's ok to rob from the poor.
Many people who pay blindly to the church would rather please other people than please God... Or they're fooled into equating corrupt, but powerful people with GOD... false gods - worshipping men essentially. If this were truly the church of Jesus Christ, they would do as Christ did - and prioritize helping those in need over collecting more tithe-payers. They'd have youth serving humanitarian missions rather than proselytizing - or at least give them the option as they do with senior missionaries.