This is for encouragement, ideas, and support for people going through a faith transition no matter where you hope to end up. This is also the place to laugh, cry, and love together.
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:10 pm
Started episode 4.
“Why am I in the temple serving people who are dead when there are people hurting across the street?”
This lady is amazing! I’ve got to figure out how to get the wife to listen to this podcast. Her experience reading the CES letter might be a turn off for TBM spouses. Sigh...
Thanks graey for starting this thread!
I'm glad the recommendation didn't fall flat for you.
I agree, I wish my wife would give it a listen. But I don't think she ever will. I've asked her to listen to Allan and Kattie's marriage on a tightrope interview with John Dehlin, thinking that would be a reasonably safe way to introduce her to JD and MS, which could then open the door to episodes like this. But even then it's been a few weeks and she hasn't showed any interest in actually doing it.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack
Wow! Her emotion and vulnerability is incredible. I’ve decided I’m sharing this one with the wife and asking her to listen. I need to time this right though as we have a lot of stuff going on around the house to finish before school starts.
I feel for her in regards to the guilt she feels about her sister reading the CES letter and leaving the church. You can feel how hurt she is and blames herself.
I think that’s why I’ve had a hard time sharing this stuff with the wife. She still finds value in her church worship and I don’t want to take that away from her or be the cause of a faith crisis. It’s too painful and should happen on her own terms.
JD should do more interviews like this and talk less. It was refreshing.
“It always devolves to Pantaloons. Always.” ~ Fluffy
“I switched baristas” ~ Lady Gaga
“Those who do not move do not notice their chains.” ~Rosa Luxemburg
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 am
I agree. Holland should have met with her in person and at least talked with her explaining he couldn’t heal her son and offered an apostolic blessing of comfort instead.
I get why they don’t do this but can you imagine a church led by compassionate leaders who understood her pain? Who understand our pain?
The church leadership is lost. Not even an ounce of compassion in their souls.
I get that the leaders are busy and might not have time for blessing every one with a problem. I am sorry for a thread jack. This is a real issue for me now. If God has a church, it can't be led by only 3, 15, or even 100 men. There would have to be thousands or millions equally able to speak for God to adequately minister to the people of the world. I am sure some TBM's will tell me that there are millions of priesthood holders, but they don't have the same authority as those at the top. RMN has the right to speak evil of those who don't give blessings the way he thinks they ought to be given. He has the right to contradict anything anyone else says. A True Church could not operate like that. If God can talk to one person, God can talk to a million.
Red Ryder wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:58 am
Wow! Her emotion and vulnerability is incredible. I’ve decided I’m sharing this one with the wife and asking her to listen. I need to time this right though as we have a lot of stuff going on around the house to finish before school starts.
I feel for her in regards to the guilt she feels about her sister reading the CES letter and leaving the church. You can feel how hurt she is and blames herself.
I think that’s why I’ve had a hard time sharing this stuff with the wife. She still finds value in her church worship and I don’t want to take that away from her or be the cause of a faith crisis. It’s too painful and should happen on her own terms.
JD should do more interviews like this and talk less. It was refreshing.
Agreed on all points. Let us know how it goes if she does or doesn't listen to it.
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack
blazerb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:57 pm
If God has a church, it can't be led by only 3, 15, or even 100 men. There would have to be thousands or millions equally able to speak for God to adequately minister to the people of the world. I am sure some TBM's will tell me that there are millions of priesthood holders, but they don't have the same authority as those at the top. RMN has the right to speak evil of those who don't give blessings the way he thinks they ought to be given. He has the right to contradict anything anyone else says. A True Church could not operate like that. If God can talk to one person, God can talk to a million.
But its a test of faith! /s
Well, I'm better than dirt! Ah, well... most kinds of dirt; not that fancy store-bought dirt; that stuff is loaded with nutrients. I can't compete with that stuff. -Moe Sizlack
So what happened with Holland? I'm under the impression that she, in full faith, asked him (or tried to ask him) to heal her son of gayness, but he refused. How did he refuse? Just ignore her? Had her kicked out of his office? Did he even know she was asking, or was a vigilant secretary fielding his calls/visits?
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.
Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK
Double, even triple, Amen to this! In spite of the copy of the painting of Jesus duly ordaining his apostles that we showed during missionary discussions, I don't see any scripture anywhere of Jesus starting a Church. Not in the NT and not in the BoM.
Moses got it right: I would to God that all men were prophets.
And those millions of priesthood holders hold an office (a title showing their level in the company) in a legally organized religion with an incredibly strict hierarchy. That's not the same thing at all to having them legitimately speaking for God. Not even Nelson does that, imo, and he has the highest office in that religion.
blazerb wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:57 pmThis is a real issue for me now. If God has a church, it can't be led by only 3, 15, or even 100 men. There would have to be thousands or millions equally able to speak for God to adequately minister to the people of the world. I am sure some TBM's will tell me that there are millions of priesthood holders, but they don't have the same authority as those at the top. RMN has the right to speak evil of those who don't give blessings the way he thinks they ought to be given. He has the right to contradict anything anyone else says. A True Church could not operate like that. If God can talk to one person, God can talk to a million.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.
Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK
There are so many stories in the last 10-20 years of TBMs who became disaffected, people who threw their whole heart and soul into the religion until something happened to disillusion them. History, CES letter, the Church essays, the extreme wealth of the Church in contrast to the hungry and poverty stricken members in third world countries who are advised to pay the rich even if they have to go without even more, and more and more. Maybe just experiences building up. Even people like me who think Joseph was sent by God have decided that a lot of the Church narrative is apostate.
They are losing the true believer who gets jolted awake for whatever reason, no matter where they (the true believers) end up on the spectrum of belief.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.
Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK
Random wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:38 pmSo what happened with Holland? I'm under the impression that she, in full faith, asked him (or tried to ask him) to heal her son of gayness, but he refused. How did he refuse? Just ignore her? Had her kicked out of his office? Did he even know she was asking, or was a vigilant secretary fielding his calls/visits?
The usual interaction with any of the uppity-ups in the hierarchy: Donna sent a letter to Holland, which was forwarded to her Stake President. Stake President gave the usual answer: Holland isn't going to fix your son. (Holland likely never even read her letter.)
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
I had a job that took me to the back side of the Great Salt Lake, which gave me enough time to listen to the entire interview on one long drive. I really enjoyed hearing it just as it was recorded. Very powerful.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:31 pmThe usual interaction with any of the uppity-ups in the hierarchy: Donna sent a letter to Holland, which was forwarded to her Stake President. Stake President gave the usual answer: Holland isn't going to fix your son. (Holland likely never even read her letter.)
Oh my hell. That sounds like trying to send a letter to AOL or Google or some other mega-monster.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.
Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK
wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:31 pmThe usual interaction with any of the uppity-ups in the hierarchy: Donna sent a letter to Holland, which was forwarded to her Stake President. Stake President gave the usual answer: Holland isn't going to fix your son. (Holland likely never even read her letter.)
Oh my hell. That sounds like trying to send a letter to AOL or Google or some other mega-monster.
As I recall, she was assured the Jeffrey actually read it, he just chose not to get involved.
“The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also.” -Mark Twain
Jesus: "The Kingdom of God is within you." The Buddha: "Be your own light."
wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:31 pmThe usual interaction with any of the uppity-ups in the hierarchy: Donna sent a letter to Holland, which was forwarded to her Stake President. Stake President gave the usual answer: Holland isn't going to fix your son. (Holland likely never even read her letter.)
Oh my hell. That sounds like trying to send a letter to AOL or Google or some other mega-monster.
As I recall, she was assured the Jeffrey actually read it, he just chose not to get involved.
It's really sad when she talks about it, because at that point she was all in so on some level she felt good that he actually read it, but conflicted because he couldn't take the 3 minutes out of his day to bless the gay away.
Pretty amazing when you look at that story from the outside to see just how controlling this church is and how destructive it becomes the moment someone steps out of line even a little bit.
wtfluff wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:31 pmThe usual interaction with any of the uppity-ups in the hierarchy: Donna sent a letter to Holland, which was forwarded to her Stake President. Stake President gave the usual answer: Holland isn't going to fix your son. (Holland likely never even read her letter.)
Oh my hell. That sounds like trying to send a letter to AOL or Google or some other mega-monster.
As I recall, she was assured the Jeffrey actually read it, he just chose not to get involved.
Yep, you're right Chief Hagoth. I just re-listened to the Holland/Letter section (part 3 14:57 minute mark.) Steak President assures Donna that Jeff did in fact read the letter.
Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. -Frater Ravus
I rather think it's a lie that he read it, though I suppose it's possible he scanned it.
Too busy. The shepherds are too busy to minister to the sheep. the shepherds have no power to heal nor to help the sheep. But they seem only too willing to shear the sheep, it seems to me.
Sigh. Apparently, I still have some anger to work through - at least in behalf of those who trustingly turn to the leaders, believing implicitly that the men see Christ regularly and speak for him always.
There are 2 Gods. One who created us. The other you created. The God you made up is just like you-thrives on flattery-makes you live in fear.
Believe in the God who created us. And the God you created should be abolished.
PK
