Excellent quote from Reddit - Can’t reason with them

[Not Buying It]

You can't reason people out of beliefs they never reasoned themselves into. If they're ever going to leave, they need to have their own personal experiences, in their own way, to discover their own questions and doubts; and not merely your shortcuts.

Actually, the whole post is well worth reading:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... t_mistake/

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I think this is true for the most part, yet there were catalysts caused by people who pointed out things I did not know which lead to cogdis which lead to personal discovery. In other cases those who were silent caused just as much if not more cogdis by living a free and happy life on Sundays and with facial hair without mentioning a single word against the system. It is more likely a combination of multiple factors that leads to discovery.

[wtfluff]

You can't reason people out of beliefs they never reasoned themselves into.

The above sentence by it'self is patently untrue. Think about how many of us would be here on NoM if that sentence alone were true.


However, I can get behind the entire statement:

You can't reason people out of beliefs they never reasoned themselves into. If they're ever going to leave, they need to have their own personal experiences, in their own way, to discover their own questions and doubts; and not merely your shortcuts.

I believe everyone has a "trigger" that can eventually get them to "reason themselves out of it" but there has to be some sort of catalyst on the believer's part. A desire to tame their cognitive dissonance, a desire for real answers... Who knows, there are likely as many catalysts as there are triggers, and some folks are happy enough inside their bubble that they will stay for eternity.

[blazerb]

I know that reason had little to do with my faith transition. I use reason now to reassure myself about about my choices, but emotional reasons had much more to do with my beliefs than reason. So, I mostly agree that reason is unlikely to convince someone to leave though it may work for some.

[Linked]

A direct rebuttal of someone's beliefs is not usually very effective, they just reject you and your message. For me the rebuttal had to come from an unexpected direction. Stuff I learned at school or on the internet that had nothing directly to do with church (Occam's Razor, Confirmation Bias), or an offhand comment from a believing friend (Church films are emotionally manipulative), or life experience in the real world contradicting my beliefs. Then years of stewing beneath the surface with dots slowly connecting in quiet moments of introspection.

Once you distance yourself from the church it becomes much harder to have an impact on a TBM's beliefs. But you become a beacon of hope for someone struggling thru a faith crisis of their own.

[wtfluff]

I know that reason had little to do with my faith transition. I use reason now to reassure myself about about my choices, but emotional reasons had much more to do with my beliefs than reason. So, I mostly agree that reason is unlikely to convince someone to leave though it may work for some.

Interesting. What was it that "helped" you to stop believing the tenets of LD$-Inc.?

[glass shelf]

I think you can't make people see things that they aren't ready to see in some way. Trying to force them to do so almost always backfires.

Professionally, I spend lots of time trying to get people to accept their new normal, their diagnoses, their need for assistance, whatever with a technique called motivational interviewing. Sometimes, I just want to say things like "USE the medication organizer because you NEED that help to help you be safe" or "Yes, your mom has had a big cognitive decline which is why she fell when she was doing (insert unsafe activity here) so she can't safely live by herself 4 hours away from any family help" but I have to gently guide people to see those things themselves. Sometimes, I have conversations where someone already knows what I'm saying (e.g. the woman whose husband had severe cognitive deficits last week who was just relieved that someone else noticed them and that we were going to get the ball rolling on a team plan to help) and sometimes people don't accept my help and have no insight into their (or their loved one's) deficits. In the end, it's my role to provide my patients and their caregivers with education and information so they can make appropriate choices, but I can't make their choices for them.

I look at Mormons in the same way. No matter how much I want to just make them see it my way, it's a process. And in their case, it's not my responsibilty to be the one to help them see it. I have a lot of empathy for where they are because I can think of at least a dozen times with a serious red flag that I should have seen Mormonism for what it was before I finally was ready to do so.

[blazerb]

Interesting. What was it that "helped" you to stop believing the tenets of LD$-Inc.?

I felt so betrayed by some personal situations, and I realized that the church did not give any help in solving them. I had been bothered by the gay marriage issue for a while. I ignored it, irrationally, until the PoX. I had been trying to make membership work as a BCC-reading, progressive Mormon, but the personal issues made the emotional toll too high. I was still paying tithing until the BYU rapes were publicized. I could not stomach contributing at that point. At one point, I also read a FB post from a man I had taught in Sunday School in which he talked about the betrayal of those who did not tell him about problems in church history. I realized I was one of those who withheld information.

When I try to explain my original issues with the church, it just sounds so illogical. I can't defend why I stayed TBM so long. Of course, now I can say something about the problems with the timeline for priesthood restoration, the ridiculous hero worship (I won't be going to the birthday party), and GA pay. There are numerous problems, but I needed to be emotionally ready to examine them.

[wtfluff]

Interesting. What was it that "helped" you to stop believing the tenets of LD$-Inc.?

I felt so betrayed by some personal situations, and I realized that the church did not give any help in solving them. I had been bothered by the gay marriage issue for a while. I ignored it, irrationally, until the PoX. I had been trying to make membership work as a BCC-reading, progressive Mormon, but the personal issues made the emotional toll too high. I was still paying tithing until the BYU rapes were publicized. I could not stomach contributing at that point. At one point, I also read a FB post from a man I had taught in Sunday School in which he talked about the betrayal of those who did not tell him about problems in church history. I realized I was one of those who withheld information.

When I try to explain my original issues with the church, it just sounds so illogical. I can't defend why I stayed TBM so long. Of course, now I can say something about the problems with the timeline for priesthood restoration, the ridiculous hero worship (I won't be going to the birthday party), and GA pay. There are numerous problems, but I needed to be emotionally ready to examine them.

To me, your first paragraph says: I started noticing a lot of issues with the church, and actually allowed myself to take a step back from TBM-ness and think about the issues rationally (reason) and realized that because of those issues, the church couldn't be "capital T" True™.

[blazerb]

To me, your first paragraph says: I started noticing a lot of issues with the church, and actually allowed myself to take a step back from TBM-ness and think about the issues rationally (reason) and realized that because of those issues, the church couldn't be "capital T" True™.

That sounds about right. I guess I hear about those who are TBM, read Rough Stone Rolling, and send in their resignation the next week. My transition was not so orderly.

I do think some people, like me, need to be in the right emotional state for the rational arguments to resonate.

[wtfluff]

To me, your first paragraph says: I started noticing a lot of issues with the church, and actually allowed myself to take a step back from TBM-ness and think about the issues rationally (reason) and realized that because of those issues, the church couldn't be "capital T" True™.

That sounds about right. I guess I hear about those who are TBM, read Rough Stone Rolling, and send in their resignation the next week. My transition was not so orderly.

I do think some people, like me, need to be in the right emotional state for the rational arguments to resonate.

Yeah, my transition brewed for 10-15 years. It can take time for the emotional programming to fall aside, and for rational arguments and reason to take over. Again, as I originally mentioned: I think everyone has a trigger; Some people may never find it (and don't want to find it,) for some folks like you and me, it takes a long time, and others can read RSR, find their trigger, and be "done" in days.