Is NOM really "middle way" to any extent anymore?

[Not Buying It]

Some of you were around on the old site for years. If you were, I'd be interested to know, over time do you think we scared the semi-believing members away? The old site was pretty explicit about embracing the "middle way". As a matter of fact, this was the quote you saw when first visiting the old NOM site:

New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.

"New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful" - this no longer seems to characterize what most of us think. When I first started lurking at the old site and then eventually when I started posting, seems like there was a contingent of posters who believed some of the truth claims of the Church, although not all of them. There were others who recognized the truth claims were all bogus, but felt the Church served a purpose in their lives. There was considerably more debate back then, which I suppose made things a little more lively. Over time there seemed to be fewer and fewer posters who held on to any belief whatsoever in the Church, now everyone here is mentally out. But there was a time when someone like Stealth Bishop - later only Stealth - could come and discuss their thoughts about the Church even if on some level they still believed. Of course, over time Stealth found the "middle way" untenable as so many of us do, and before too long he was as mentally out of the Church as any of the rest of us. There was a poster called Asa who from time to time would pop in with a more believing perspective. There were others whose names I can no longer recall.

Those of us here don't seem to have the philosophical approach that was promulgated on the old site, and that's OK, there's nothing wrong with NOM drifting in a different direction. But I have to wonder, did those of us critical of the Church eventually scare away everyone else who was more "middle way"? Is that why there is so much less debate on the site today compared to the NOM site, say, ten years ago? And because of that, is the site less useful in helping someone navigate a faith transition than it used to be?

[Red Ryder]

Oh God no! It’s an echo chamber around here.

Cwald said it best over at the mormondiscussions forum.

No, that is not NOM. That is a recent attempt to recreate NOM.

Peak NOM was probably 2014 or 2015 right as the last of the church essays were coming out and high profile excommunications started.

Here’s the way I see it:

The middle way doesn’t exist. It never has. It’s a mirage in the disaffection desert.

The church isn’t set up for half assed belief. When members only partially believe it diminishes the power of the church.

The middle way effectively becomes a stepping stone out of Mormonism. Just look at the posters who no longer frequent NOM.

Either A) they’ve left the church and no longer attend or even resigned.

Or B) they’ve become mentally numb enough to not let the church and crazy culture bother them anymore and don’t need to vent and whine daily.

NOM has simply become a place for collaboration among regular posters living in mixed faith marriages. 90% of us here would walk away from church and NOM tomorrow if our spouses woke up to the falsehood of the Mormon Church. I would. Remember RunningMom and Jenny?

The last point I’ll make is that the faith crisis conversations are now happening in real time under real names on Facebook and other media platforms. This means more people aren’t afraid and don’t need a forum for anonymous postings to complain about church. Also, all of the information has been aggregated into documents like the CES Letter etc where people can read everything at once. Back in 2005 when I stepped into Internet Mormonism people would discuss all the nuances of the issues on forums, go read or research then come back to discuss and it took time. Now they read everything in a few days, call BS, and everyone congratulates and high fives them.

This may also be a side effect of technology and cell phone internet in our pockets. Or a generational thing like memes, Instagram, and other quick glance communication. Perhaps discussion is dying out and call out culture and dog piling as taken over. Who knows?

NOM no longer caters to the middle way seekers but rather to the people stuck or too afraid to rip the band-aid off.

NOM will eventually die out. It has to as Mormonism devolves and the power and control the church once had dissipates.

Sigh...

[Just This Guy]

Maybe the best way to look at NOM is a visitor center on the road from Mormonism to the Rest of the world.

Welcome to the Road Away.
We are here to help people though this journey.
We will answer questions.
We will help you read the map and develop your own course of action.
We can recommend various destinations and things to try. We'll also teach you how to get the most enjoyment out of these things.
We'll teach you how to communicate with the locals.
Everyone has their own unique journey and we are the tour guides.

[moksha]

I like the idea of having faith. Dr. Viktor Frankl observed that those with faith are the most tenacious survivors in this life. I like how message boards like this can help us refine our beliefs so that they are tailored to our needs. Those who are aware that their previous belief system was flawed can ponder what is said here and come up with something worthwhile that will help them navigate life.

[jfro18]

NOM has simply become a place for collaboration among regular posters living in mixed faith marriages. 90% of us here would walk away from church and NOM tomorrow if our spouses woke up to the falsehood of the Mormon Church. I would. Remember RunningMom and Jenny?

NOM no longer caters to the middle way seekers but rather to the people stuck or too afraid to rip the band-aid off.

NOM will eventually die out. It has to as Mormonism devolves and the power and control the church once had dissipates.

Sigh...

This is definitely true - I'd stop looking at Mormonism tomorrow if my wife told me she was done. I would probably still visit here just to see how everyone else is doing, but I wouldn't care about Mormonism all that much knowing that my life was mostly free of it.

So for me NOM has been great to have an outlet to vent and discuss this stuff in a way that doesn't have the "drive by" nature of Reddit and is also a small enough group where we're all rooting for each other. It's a stepping stone I think for a lot of people when they can truly break from the church (the whole family goes away) or like RR said - sometimes people know they're stuck with it and just don't want to keep pouring salt on the wound when they can't do anything about it.

Either way I'm glad it's here... the middle way is going to be a 'phase' for almost everyone in it -- once you hit the middle way you're likely going to leave completely, while the others will probably always be half out mentally but stuck at church for family reasons.

[crossmyheart]

New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.
"New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful"

My TBM-ish husband is a closer definition of this. In fact, a lot of my extended family probably fit this definition as well. But they are dedicated to the cause and attend week after week despite the bad because of the good they see in it.

I may be too far removed, but I wonder if that definition is closer to a definition of most active members? Most are cafeteria Mormons wouldn't you say?

[wtfluff]

There are still folks around here who hold on to tenants of mormonism, whether they type it out loud or not...

NOM has just become the "lite" version of some of the other, more "angry" sites that people who would like to escape mormonism can turn to.

I expect someone in my family will always be mormon. I don't expect to completely escape until I'm dead. NOM was the first safe space I was able to step in to when my religious world exploded. I suspect NOM will always be "home" in that way for me, as long as it is around...

[græy]

So for me NOM has been great to have an outlet to vent and discuss this stuff in a way that doesn't have the "drive by" nature of Reddit and is also a small enough group where we're all rooting for each other.

This is me too. Reddit is too... impersonal for any real support network. These days reddit is 99% memes anyway, often from people who have obviously not studied as much as they think they have.

I genuinely like the community here and I feel that I have been "blessed" to find all of you since I have no one in my real world life who is less than 100% committed to their vision of what a TBM should be.

I rant and rave a lot about the church and its truthfulness, or lack thereof. But in all honesty, even if my wife was on-board it would take some time before I was actually ready to walk away, even if that is where I envision myself going one day. For now, It is what I know. It is where our friends, family, and community are. So for now, and for the foreseeable future, the middle way is my path. Nuanced beliefs or not, the community here fit for me. No other forums I visited or even joined had that same feel.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

I got on here because I got really tired of the other angrier boards. I assumed it was pretty much what it claimed- a group of nuanced believers. It sounded really appealing to discuss things with that kind of a group, even though I'm not a believer. But, it seems like a lot of you are kind of like me- stuck with Mormonism, not necessarily because you don't want to give it up, but because you can't escape it.

My journey went like this-
Full believer
Doubtfull believer, wondering if I and my loved ones were headed for hell (this lasted a LONG time and was really bad for me)
Complete disbeliever, feeling like the church is evil
Complete disbeliever, no longer seeing the world in black and white, thinking there's a mix of good and bad in the church or any other religion, thinking church leaders are probably well intentioned humans with their own points of view and reasons for being the way they are, realizing that trying to deconvert others may not even be in their best interest, not necessarily being happier as a non-believer, and kind of sad to lose the good but too pissed to enjoy it anyway, but not wanting to remain angry forever, and WISHING I COULD ESCAPE but I can't since I'm married in, like a lot of you. I figure I fit in pretty well.

I like NOM because it still has some variety in points of view, and it doesn't necessarily devolve into rants. There are thoughtful people here, and I like it!

But, yeah, I don't think the Middle Way can be a stopping place. It's just a rest stop on the road out. Also, I'm not dead certain, but I feel like all the message boards I've read over time have become more full of non-believers and homogeneous. I'm guessing it's a common phenomenon- the unbelievers make the believers uncomfortable, so they finally leave, leaving an echo chamber for non-believers.

[alas]

I think when NOM.1 was started, there honestly was a “middle way” in that partial believing members could stay active, under the radar, without going out of their minds. This was discussed several times on old NOM, but the church changed over time. I was NOM back in 1980’s. I did not believe the BoM was literally true, but I found good truth in it. I was probably closer to thinking JS was a con man than I was seeing him as the great prophet of the restoration. I knew enough of the historical issues, i mean seriously, do you really need more than polygamy? However, I saw good in the church. I was Christian, but not Mormon. And my husband was a believing member and I figured why fight him about the problems in Mormonism. I want my kids to have a religious upbringing, and Mormon is as good as any other.

But we don’t have the church of 1980. Back then, sure it was still a recovering racist, but so were most Christian churches that were not black Baptist’s. And the point was that we were recovering. In 1970-78, I was ready to dump the church over the racial issues like many are today over LGBT issues.

I was active and an under the radar unbeliever....well probably from as early as I gave the church any serious thought. I just could not accept that an intelligent God would pick a 14 year old arrogant narcissist as prophet. It just wouldn’t go down. But it was OK. I was primary president and Relief society president and when I bore my testimony, I just didn’t mention JS or restoration and talked about love, service, and Christ. Nobody got on my case about the testimony I didn’t bare. For TR interviews, I just said that I believe our church president can get inspiration for the church exactly the same way I believe the Pope can get revelation for the Catholic Church. Not one bishop gave me a bad time over it. I even mentioned that I had big issues with Joseph Smith over polygamy. How can he be a prophet and treat women like cattle? No bishop wanted to discuss THAT any further. So, I wasn’t really flying “under the radar” but setting off alarms that people were quite willing to ignore as long as I was showing up and doing my calling.

But gradually the church got more Mormon and less Christian. It quickly traded being bigoted asshats over skin color to being bigoted asshats over who people fell in love with. As things happened, like not finding archeological evidence in Mayan ruins, to scientists saying coffee was good for you, to research into church history turning up lots and lots of dirt, to people daring to criticize the church over its stand against gay marriage, the church just got more and more paranoid.

Now, I could never get away with baring my testimony and leaving out Joseph Smith. I could never pass a TR interview by comparing the “prophet” to the Pope. It wasn’t my testimony that changed, but the church got paranoid about people who didn’t fall in line. The September 6 excommunications was part of this change. Suddenly you could no longer be in the church and open in your criticism of the church. Benson and his political shift hard right, well his influence had been around for a while, but when he became prophet, his right wing political views became the church norm. The church tried to cozy up to the evangelicals and get in bed with the Catholics. Looking down our noses at all other religions wasn’t good, but in ways it was better than getting into political partnerships with fundamental religions.

The church used to have a broad umbrella for everyone who wanted to be a member. Now, we have tests of faith to determine if you believe the right stuff. Tests of conformity to test if you are loyal enough.

The middle way does not exist because the church closed it. I was a middle way Mormon for about 40 years. But that way of being in the church because you want to be, even if you don’t believe ALL of it, has been closed off. The church wants you church broke or out. It doesn’t want to waste time with anyone not fully church broke.

[BriansThoughtMirror]

Wow, alas, thanks for sharing! That was a fascinating read. You really have a broad experience with how we got to this point. Sometimes I wish I could ask my mom about the ways the church has changed in her lifetime, but it has always felt too awkward. Now I think I will.

[MerrieMiss]

New Order Mormons are those who no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful. New Order Mormons seek the middle way to be Mormon.
"New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful"

My TBM-ish husband is a closer definition of this. In fact, a lot of my extended family probably fit this definition as well. But they are dedicated to the cause and attend week after week despite the bad because of the good they see in it.

I may be too far removed, but I wonder if that definition is closer to a definition of most active members? Most are cafeteria Mormons wouldn't you say?

I think there are a lot of middle way mormons/NOMs in the seats every Sunday - they just don't see themselves as such. By the time they are willing to to describe themselves that way, they're on the way out.

[græy]

The middle way does not exist because the church closed it. I was a middle way Mormon for about 40 years. But that way of being in the church because you want to be, even if you don’t believe ALL of it, has been closed off. The church wants you church broke or out. It doesn’t want to waste time with anyone not fully church broke.

Thank you alas. I've been at this now for just over three years. Even at that it feels like it has been a very long time. I can't imagine keeping this up for consecutive decades.

[Hagoth]

... I'd be interested to know, over time do you think we scared the semi-believing members away?

Yeah, I think we did scare him away. Maybe he went back to StayLDS.

[Phil Lurkerman]

Lots of interesting comments - always interesting to better understand the many experiences we've all had.

For me, the "middle way" proved a very brief and untenable path. It was very much a "strait and narrow path," in that it could only work by carefully ignoring both people and information on both sides.

The old NOM definitely had a much larger range of belief and was a great place for me to learn and work out my own thoughts for a few years. However, I agree with others who have posted earlier that the middle has been gradually squeezed out by the institutional church on one side and the accumulating evidence on the other. The middle just seems a very challenging space to claim at this point.

My interest in the current NOM is mostly a place to learn of current church happenings in a comfortable (for me) environment. It helps me stay in the loop so I know what extended family are talking about.

[Rob4Hope]

The middle way does not exist because the church closed it. I was a middle way Mormon for about 40 years. But that way of being in the church because you want to be, even if you don’t believe ALL of it, has been closed off. The church wants you church broke or out. It doesn’t want to waste time with anyone not fully church broke.

What is funny is the "sudden death" type of statements have come from some of the more recent leadership, including Packer and especially guys like GBH. "Its either true or its not"...and this from the guy who lied about financial matters on national TV?

RMN is a hard-liner. GAWD, I can't imagine how things will be when Oaks fully takes the reins. WATCHOUT!!!!

[nibbler]

"New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful"

My experiences come close to what alas mentioned. If I try to approach church meetings as a complete outsider, most meetings appear to have the goal of convincing people that this is The True Church. It gets to the point where every Sunday feels like an insecure person constantly trying to reassure themselves.

I know the church is true. Let's revisit the restoration narrative because it proves the truthfulness. We have a prophet, other people don't, so I know it's true. The rest of the world is wicked, which just goes to show how true we are. Doubting is bad. I know the church is true.

The challenge... I don't have much use for listening to that every Sunday. For the sake of argument, let's say that the church is indeed every bit as "True" as it claims to be. Sitting around talking about how True it is all day doesn't accomplish very much.

I don't need a perfect church but it feels like the goal of our 2 hour block is to create that need in people. It's less a question of the truth claims and more an issue of relevancy. Most of the experience feels like a never ending loyalty test, and I don't find that useful.

[alas]

The middle way does not exist because the church closed it. I was a middle way Mormon for about 40 years. But that way of being in the church because you want to be, even if you don’t believe ALL of it, has been closed off. The church wants you church broke or out. It doesn’t want to waste time with anyone not fully church broke.

Thank you alas. I've been at this now for just over three years. Even at that it feels like it has been a very long time. I can't imagine keeping this up for consecutive decades.

I guess my whole point is that a person who is not willing to lie to themselves simply cannot be part of an organization whose leaders are getting pretty good at lying to themselves. About the time that Packer said that some truth is not very useful, and named those seeking respect and equality (feminists and gays) and those seeking truth ( intellectuals) as enemies of the church, and Hinkley said the church is all true of it is a fraud, you know he suspects it is a fraud because an honest person knows nothing is all true.

[Newme]

There are still folks around here who hold on to tenants of mormonism, whether they type it out loud or not...

NOM has just become the "lite" version of some of the other, more "angry" sites that people who would like to escape mormonism can turn to.

I expect someone in my family will always be mormon. I don't expect to completely escape until I'm dead. NOM was the first safe space I was able to step in to when my religious world exploded. I suspect NOM will always be "home" in that way for me, as long as it is around...

This is how I see it too. Mormonism colors the way many - even angrier states - think and communicate, even when we’ve mentally moved on. For those of us in interfaith marriages etc., where we go to church still, it’s in our minds more. And thus this place can be sanity-saver.

I also agree with the implication that the church discouraged the “middle way” & I’d argue many here - but especially angrier sites - do too. It’s polarized (all-or-nothing, either/or) thinking like, “The church is either true or not” and “You are either on the Lord’s side or you’re not.” More subtly, “You are either stupid TBM or politically-correct liberal.” And it you happen to be on one side that is unpopular, then you are unpopular. Herd mentality is theorized to affect about 70% of people.

[Ghost]

I've watched the tone of this place shift somewhat as the number of those who actually want to stay engaged to some degree diminishes and the number of those who simply feel trapped grows.

Fortunately, even when the discussion here resembles the anger and open mockery you see in other places, an underlying thoughtfulness and civility seems to persist. One thing that perhaps helps this place remain welcoming is the rule (if it's still a rule) that posters express themselves without obscenity. That alone sets the discussion here apart from what you see in some other places, even if it's ultimately a small thing.

When I first found NOM years ago, it felt like a bit much to me--even as tame as it was back then. But I eventually realized that it was the most comfortable place for me. I found it especially valuable because I had (and still have) nothing equivalent in person.

I hope we don't drive people off who might benefit from this site because we become resigned to the idea that a "middle way" is impossible for whatever reason. I wonder if the ever-increasing polarization is not limited to Mormon culture, but spill-over from society at large that seems to push us to always pick a side in everything and have all the right opinions to identify with our chosen group.

Currently, I feel as if I'll remain "Mormon" indefinitely, even if attending church meetings these days feels alien and the truth claims, which were once the most important part for me, are now largely curiosities and nostalgia.