Pornography is worse than adultery, apparently.

[Hagoth]

In this new video from the Satan'sVictorychannel, this guy talks about looking at pornography AND serially cheating on his wife. The solution? Punish him for viewing pornography and send him to a porn addiction recovery program. It makes a big deal about how much pain his porn viewing caused his wife and completely glosses over the secret sexual meetings with others behind her back. What's the deal?

https://www.mormonchannel.org/watch/ser ... 50219_CTA2

[Angel]

Things that upset me about the addition recovery groups at church

1) they are led by untrained volunteers
2) they completely ignore the victims (there are way more groups for addicts than there are for victims)
3) they enable abuse to continue - pat on the head with no consequences

The HP who abused my kids was going to addiction recovery groups for years and years. His addition ruined his first temple marriage, he was abusing his own kids, other people's kids - but - you know - just go to the addiction support group, and that is all he needed??? for years and years??? and they put him in the bishopric??? total BS. Those groups support abusers. period.

[Hagoth]

I heard a sunday school lesson by the (untrained) directors of our local addiction recovery program. They said they had drug addicts, porn addicts, sex addicts, food addicts and "sleep addicts" all in the same group. Apparently, all of those are all just different manifestations of the same thing in their eyes.

What really bugs me about the video is the type of manipulation they use. These are people who really had some significant marital problems, pornography being one of them. The church loves porn because they know that pretty much every guy has at least taken a curious peek and feels guilty about it. That gives them a powerful control handle. This guy was cheating on his wife, for crying out loud, but that's treated as just the natural fallout of looking at porn. The message is that men are powerless before the iron grip of pornography, just as they are powerless to short skirts and bare shoulders, and their only hope is to go crawling to church leaders for rescue to save them before their life completely unravels. The church creates porn addicts and then offers itself as their only hope.

Why isn't the message about not cheating on your spouse? Because many men feel guilty about having seen something pornographic at some time, but very few have committed adultery, so you can't guilt them out about that. Instead, the message is that if you ever look at porn you might as well accept that you're going to be committing adultery eventually because that's just one of the many horrible but inevitable consequences of jumping off that cliff.

Most of us have seen some naughty pictures at some point in the past and have never once considered adultery. We've also seen some violent movies and never felt the need to kill.

[Hagoth]

What I would LOVE to see from the church is a video about a guy who decided to stop looking at porn because it is disrespectful to women and instead focus on being even more respectful of his wife. Or a video about a couple developing a healthy sexual relationship, rather than a couple with a sick and twisted relationship in which one gets caught and everyone suffers.

[alas]

Things that upset me about the addition recovery groups at church

1) they are led by untrained volunteers
2) they completely ignore the victims (there are way more groups for addicts than there are for victims)
3) they enable abuse to continue - pat on the head with no consequences

The HP who abused my kids was going to addiction recovery groups for years and years. His addition ruined his first temple marriage, he was abusing his own kids, other people's kids - but - you know - just go to the addiction support group, and that is all he needed??? for years and years??? and they put him in the bishopric??? total BS. Those groups support abusers. period.

This.

First of all, where are the support groups for the people HURT by addiction? In the mental health field, we know that children growing up with alcoholic parents end up sicker than the addict if they are not helped. They often repeat either the addiction or the codependency of the non substance abusing spouse. They are more likely to abuse substances or people, because they are not emotionally healthy. And if the spouse doesn’t have problems before substance abuse starts, the chaotic like of living with an addict soon creates codependency, lack of self worth, and enabling behavior as they attempt to survive while married to an addict.

It is the same with other children and spouses of addiction and abuse. Addiction leaves the same emotional scars on children as physical or sexual abuse. But the church doesn’t care about the victims. It only cares about the sinner.

Now, don’t get me wrong. Jesus said to love the sinner, but he assumed we would also love the innocent victim of sin. But no, this church kicks the innocent victim to the curb, while coddling the sinner. The leave the victim at the side of the road, like the high priest did in the story of the Good Samaritan, but unlike the high priest who was just too busy, the Mormon church chases after the thief to give him extra love so that poor thief knows Jesus loves them even if they are a thief. While leaving the innocent at the side of the road to die. Yup. That was how my mother and I were treated about my father’s sin and he was given heaps of love as he pretended to repent.

Secondly, As a mental health professional, I support groups led by two things. #1. Somebody who has been through it, like nonMormon AA, like support groups for rape survivors and cancer survivors. #2. Trained professionals.

But picking leaders for the groups according to their loyalty to religion rather than because they know what the hell they are doing is like picking a plumber to do your heart surgery because you like his religion. We would never screw around with physical health this way. Why the blankety blank blank do they think they can take their screw driver and mess with people’s heads?

[Angel]

Things that upset me about the addition recovery groups at church

1) they are led by untrained volunteers
2) they completely ignore the victims (there are way more groups for addicts than there are for victims)
3) they enable abuse to continue - pat on the head with no consequences

The HP who abused my kids was going to addiction recovery groups for years and years. His addition ruined his first temple marriage, he was abusing his own kids, other people's kids - but - you know - just go to the addiction support group, and that is all he needed??? for years and years??? and they put him in the bishopric??? total BS. Those groups support abusers. period.

This.

First of all, where are the support groups for the people HURT by addiction? In the mental health field, we know that children growing up with alcoholic parents end up sicker than the addict if they are not helped. They often repeat either the addiction or the codependency of the non substance abusing spouse. They are more likely to abuse substances or people, because they are not emotionally healthy. And if the spouse doesn’t have problems before substance abuse starts, the chaotic like of living with an addict soon creates codependency, lack of self worth, and enabling behavior as they attempt to survive while married to an addict.

It is the same with other children and spouses of addiction and abuse. Addiction leaves the same emotional scars on children as physical or sexual abuse. But the church doesn’t care about the victims. It only cares about the sinner.

Now, don’t get me wrong. Jesus said to love the sinner, but he assumed we would also love the innocent victim of sin. But no, this church kicks the innocent victim to the curb, while coddling the sinner. The leave the victim at the side of the road, like the high priest did in the story of the Good Samaritan, but unlike the high priest who was just too busy, the Mormon church chases after the thief to give him extra love so that poor thief knows Jesus loves them even if they are a thief. While leaving the innocent at the side of the road to die. Yup. That was how my mother and I were treated about my father’s sin and he was given heaps of love as he pretended to repent.

Secondly, As a mental health professional, I support groups led by two things. #1. Somebody who has been through it, like nonMormon AA, like support groups for rape survivors and cancer survivors. #2. Trained professionals.

But picking leaders for the groups according to their loyalty to religion rather than because they know what the hell they are doing is like picking a plumber to do your heart surgery because you like his religion. We would never screw around with physical health this way. Why the blankety blank blank do they think they can take their screw driver and mess with people’s heads?

The only reason the church has these groups is to protect their own *** they do not want to deal with people suing the church when they are abused by church leaders, so they divert the problems away from local law enforcement to untrained brainwashed no-bodies who can take the fall and brush everything under the rug.

For anyone out there reading this who needs help - the church "family services" program does NOT help families, it helps the church stay out of law suits. Stay the hell away from any church sponsored addiction group, or church sponsored "counseling" or church sponsored anything. The church's #1 priority is to save their own necks - NOT to help the victim.

Just read a few of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_ab ... urch_cases

read the 316 pg report, read Sam Young's stories.
Church denied legal liability...
A felony charge of witness intimidation was dismissed as part of a plea bargain...
witness tampering...

It is in the church's best interest to further victimize the victims - to deny, intimidate, lie - do everything it can to push the blame away from the Bishop or other high priest who was abusing people.

[Corsair]

What I would LOVE to see from the church is a video about a guy who decided to stop looking at porn because it is disrespectful to women and instead focus on being even more respectful of his wife. Or a video about a couple developing a healthy sexual relationship, rather than a couple with a sick and twisted relationship in which one gets caught and everyone suffers.

That kind of attitude does not lead people towards greater obeisance to the LDS church. As Zadok has stated:

Never Confess. Anyone that wants to hear your confession is only going to use it against you. Never Confess!!!

I'm not trying to justify pornography. But the amusing fact in your average Elders Quorum is that everyone of them has seen their wife naked and frankly desires to see that again soon. The teaching as a youth was that if you view porn it will infest your mind when you are trying to be spiritual in the temple. But there is an exception for your married spouse as long as you don't explicitly bring up that point in Elders Quorum or Sunday School.

[2bizE]

What is pornography?
How does it differ from nudity or art?

[blazerb]

What is pornography?
How does it differ from nudity or art?

All art is porn. It makes you feel good.

Seriously, the logical fallacies in the church's anti-porn crusades are destructive. When I was on the high council, I remember the councilor in charge of the addiction support group explaining how it worked when they were calling a new coordinator. The group was described as being about testifying of the atonement. That's all dandy, but I'm not sure there's any evidence that it helps. I know teenagers were sent to the group alongside adults. Our bishop wanted my child to attend. Luckily, I was able to get advice from smarter people.

[2bizE]

What is pornography?
How does it differ from nudity or art?

All art is porn. It makes you feel good.

Seriously, the logical fallacies in the church's anti-porn crusades are destructive. When I was on the high council, I remember the councilor in charge of the addiction support group explaining how it worked when they were calling a new coordinator. The group was described as being about testifying of the atonement. That's all dandy, but I'm not sure there's any evidence that it helps. I know teenagers were sent to the group alongside adults. Our bishop wanted my child to attend. Luckily, I was able to get advice from smarter people.

Suppose my wife and I film ourself in the very act (same words used in the Bible) and we like to watch our video together from time to time.
Is that watching porn? Suppose we share our video with another couple that are friends and they watch it. Is that porn?
I believe Oaks and Tad Cccpcalistar claim porn is anything that gets you sexually stimulated. In other words, my wife is walking porn.
I think Natasha Helier Parker best describes pornography as a business that exploits people. (Paraphrasing).
I’ve heard that LDS porn program is only about 5% effective. What happens with the 95 lost sheep? They probably give up, accept it as a folly, move on with their lives, and become productive members of society...until the church shamed them again.

[Wonderment]

What I would LOVE to see from the church is a video about a guy who decided to stop looking at porn because it is disrespectful to women and instead focus on being even more respectful of his wife. Or a video about a couple developing a healthy sexual relationship, rather than a couple with a sick and twisted relationship in which one gets caught and everyone suffers.

Absolutely right on. Sadly, this viewpoint is too "woke" for anyone in the church to consider it. Wndr.

[Just This Guy]

The only reason the church has these groups is to protect their own *** they do not want to deal with people suing the church when they are abused by church leaders, so they divert the problems away from local law enforcement to untrained brainwashed no-bodies who can take the fall and brush everything under the rug.

While I have no doubt that the insulation from liability is a major factor in the creation of ARP, I also wonder if it was an underhanded cost savings move as well. When a member sees someone at LDSFC, those are paid people who do the counseling. If they were seeing an uptick in cases of "addiction" and a rise in costs for member counseling services, how better to deal with the cost than to off load it? AA has a reasonably successful program to tackle alcoholism, so why not co-opt it, make it more generic, have a bunch of basically untrained* volunteers run a program like AA for everyone. So all the cases they were spending lots of $$ on can now be handled for no cost.

Pure speculation on my part, but due to the number of cases that LDSFC revers to ARP, i'm sure it's atleast in there somewhere in the justification.



* While there is training for the people running ARP, this training is minimal. The training when DW and I were called to consists of a lesson manual and a couple hours of training by the stake level ARP president (he worked for a TV station). I'm an engineer by training. The limits of my medical training are some first aid & CPR/AED classes. I have no physiological or clinical training. I was basically told to run the sessions off a scrip out of the manual and avoid talking about anyone's situation in detail, and pray that somehow DW and I would be able to help them get better.

[Just This Guy]

Suppose my wife and I film ourself in the very act (same words used in the Bible) and we like to watch our video together from time to time.
Is that watching porn? Suppose we share our video with another couple that are friends and they watch it. Is that porn?

TBM Whisper hat here:

Suppose my wife and I film ourself in the very act (same words used in the Bible) and we like to watch our video together from time to time.
No. As long as it is only legally & lawfully wed couple watching together to get each other off. If you are watching it to get yourself off, then Yes, it's porn and masturbation.

Suppose we share our video with another couple that are friends and they watch it. Is that porn?
Yes. They are watching someone whom they are not legally & lawfully wed to.

Yeah, porn is in the eye of the beholder.

And as far as your wife being walking porn, it's an example of just how TSCC messes with your mind. For 18+ years you grow up being told not to look at a person of the opposite gender because you are committing adultry if you do so. Girls/boys will head to into temptation and damnation. Then suddenly one day, after a short ceremony, now you can look and lust after one person all you want. It can take a lot to break the programing of many years of childhood lessons and guilt.

[alas]

The only reason the church has these groups is to protect their own *** they do not want to deal with people suing the church when they are abused by church leaders, so they divert the problems away from local law enforcement to untrained brainwashed no-bodies who can take the fall and brush everything under the rug.

While I have no doubt that the insulation from liability is a major factor in the creation of ARP, I also wonder if it was an underhanded cost savings move as well. When a member sees someone at LDSFC, those are paid people who do the counseling. If they were seeing an uptick in cases of "addiction" and a rise in costs for member counseling services, how better to deal with the cost than to off load it? AA has a reasonably successful program to tackle alcoholism, so why not co-opt it, make it more generic, have a bunch of basically untrained* volunteers run a program like AA for everyone. So all the cases they were spending lots of $$ on can now be handled for no cost.

Pure speculation on my part, but due to the number of cases that LDSFC revers to ARP, i'm sure it's atleast in there somewhere in the justification.



* While there is training for the people running ARP, this training is minimal. The training when DW and I were called to consists of a lesson manual and a couple hours of training by the stake level ARP president (he worked for a TV station). I'm an engineer by training. The limits of my medical training are some first aid & CPR/AED classes. I have no physiological or clinical training. I was basically told to run the sessions off a scrip out of the manual and avoid talking about anyone's situation in detail, and pray that somehow DW and I would be able to help them get better.

I understand from someone way up in LDS FS that it was started by alcoholics themselves as a branch of AA, then according to him (LDS FS guy) the church saw it was a good idea and started sponsoring the groups....but on the other hand, I heard from someone in one of the original groups, that the church bullied the group into putting it “under” LDS FS rather than as a free standing LDS branch of AA, led in the AA manner by fellow alcoholics. He sounded resentful.