New RFM podcast on Nelson's LGBT flip-flop is really good stuff

[jfro18]

I listened to this walking the dog yesterday and today -- it's really good at covering how ridiculous the idea of revelation is under Nelson and the church, how the Nov 15 policy never made sense in the first place, and the last 10-15 minutes where RFM compares Nelson's story of the revelatory process against Greg Prince's knowledge of how it came to be is fantastic.

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/201 ... the-shark/

[consiglieri]

So glad you liked it.

The stars really came into alignment for this podcast.

I think it may be the best podcast I've ever done.

(Which may or may not be saying something depending on your point of view.)

[Culper Jr.]

Loved the kitten analogy; it was spot on!

[Corsair]

I can confirm that this was a great episode. I suspect that none of the believers in my life would want to discuss the implications of this analysis. My Lesbian daughter was actually annoyed at the announcement reversing the policy a few weeks ago. It simply felt disingenuous and certainly lacked any idea of apology for the catastrophic problems it caused for many families. What does the LDS church truly offer any LGBT people that would lead to orthodox activity?

[Yobispo]

Your best work yet, consig!!! That last part was silver bullet level.

[Just This Guy]

I'm about 40 minutes into this one. Hopefully I'll finish on my commute home tonight.

Interesting analysis that they are trying to blame members for their inability to keep the PoX in force instead of taking their own responsibility or even blaming god for changing his mind.

[Hagoth]

Wow, Consiglieri, this one really hit it out of the ballpark. I wish everyone sustaining those guys in October could listen to this first.

[Red Ryder]

Is there a cliff notes version or TLDL (too long didn't listen) for those of us who don't listen to Mormon themed podcasts anymore?

I could undo my self imposed ban on Mormon themed podcasts for this one. Is it worth it?

[jfro18]

Is there a cliff notes version or TLDL (too long didn't listen) for those of us who don't listen to Mormon themed podcasts anymore?

I could undo my self imposed ban on Mormon themed podcasts for this one. Is it worth it?

I'm going off the top of my head, but it highlights how Nelson called the Nov 15 policy revelation and goes into detail about how sloppy the rollout was, which is contradicted by Nelson saying they went over every possibility to get it right.

Then he talks about the reversal statement and how in a lot of ways it puts the blame on everyone but the church leaders.

The last 10-15 minutes are really good because it shows that Nelson's statements are simply not true about how the Nov 15 "revelation" all went down.

I'm sure there is much more to it, but those were the 'segments' I remember off the top of my head.

[Just This Guy]

Is there a cliff notes version or TLDL (too long didn't listen) for those of us who don't listen to Mormon themed podcasts anymore?

I could undo my self imposed ban on Mormon themed podcasts for this one. Is it worth it?

Another section was on the logical consequences for the 4 different scenarios with the "revelation."

1. Both the initial policy and the reversal are revelation.
2. The initial Policy was revelation, the reversal was not.
3. The initial policy was not revelation, the reversal was.
4. Neither the initial policy nor reversal was revelation.

So here is the problem with these situations.
2 & 3. If one was revelation, and the other not, how are we supposed to know what is and is not revelation? At that point, every "revelation" that RMN has had is now suspect.
1. This one is throwing god under the bus. Now god is a changeable god. How do you justify such a policy? About the only reasonable responce to to weed out the chaff. But what is the chaff? People who leave the church over a policy that is blatantly contradictory to the teaching of Jesus. So the policy is to drive off the people who are more willing to listen to the teachings of Christ himself than the modern prophets? what does that say about god?
4. If none of this was revelation, then the Q15 are deliberately lying about their ability to get revelation. Every "revelation" from RMN is now void. They are deliberately misleading people on their connection to the divine. This is fraud.

[1smartdodog]

Every time RFM breaks it down like this it tells me how illogical the premise of the church is, how deceptive it can be.

I sometimes fantasies RFM interviewing the prophet. I think by the end the prophet would be a basket case. That would be a interview for the ages.

[Not Buying It]

Every time RFM breaks it down like this it tells me how illogical the premise of the church is, how deceptive it can be.

I sometimes fantasies RFM interviewing the prophet. I think by the end the prophet would be a basket case. That would be a interview for the ages.

Why would the Prophet be afraid of that? He should be chomping at the bit to take on doubters publicly. Elijah was always going toe to toe with King Ahab, Alma and Amulek took Zeezrom on publicly, Jacob bested Sherem, there are all kinds of stories of prophets in the scriptures winning public debates with doubters. He ought to be calling up and asking to be on the show.

Hmmm...wonder why he isn't?

[Red Ryder]

Every time RFM breaks it down like this it tells me how illogical the premise of the church is, how deceptive it can be.

I sometimes fantasies RFM interviewing the prophet. I think by the end the prophet would be a basket case. That would be a interview for the ages.

Why would the Prophet be afraid of that? He should be chomping at the bit to take on doubters publicly. Elijah was always going toe to toe with King Ahab, Alma and Amulek took Zeezrom on publicly, Jacob bested Sherem, there are all kinds of stories of prophets in the scriptures winning public debates with doubters. He ought to be calling up and asking to be on the show.

Hmmm...wonder why he isn't?

Because they are modern day prophets and everyone knows modern day prophets only communicate from wood pulpits, magazine articles, and newsroom websites.

Face to face visits are saved for the Pope fan Boi club.

[jfro18]

Because they are modern day prophets and everyone knows modern day prophets only communicate from wood pulpits, magazine articles, and newsroom websites.

Face to face visits are saved for the Pope fan Boi club.

Even as a member I always thought it was weird how church leaders would never talk to the press or take questions from doubters.

Maybe it was because the missionaries told me that the prophets were living, breathing mouthpieces of God, so I thought they'd actually live up to the hype.

Instead they hide in their bubble and are surrounded by people just trying to run the corporation as best (successfully financially) as they can.

[moksha]

Consiglieri presented proof that neither change was based on revelation. Even at the apologetic MD&D board, they were conceding to the proof furnished by Consiglieri with the caveat the even the prophets are entitled to make mistakes because they are not fallible. However, the mistake of lying about receiving revelations should not be happening since it contradicts the claim of being a prophet.

It does not speak well of the other Brethren to let that lie stand for years for the sake of unity among the Brethren. That cannot even be justified as "lying for the Lord". Wish all members could hear Consiglieri's podcast and this bundle of lies would not have to happen again. If the Church leadership was less arrogant they would issue an apology to Church members.

Wish the Brethren had not acted out of white-hot anger at the Supreme Court ruling in the first place. Church members did grouse about an "activist" court for several decades after the Supremes issued the Brown vs The Little Rock Board of Education decision, but they had the wisdom not to claim a revelation that said racial segregation in public schools was God's will. Of course, they may not have felt a need since the Church practiced its own racial discrimination for 22 years after that.

[Not Buying It]

Because they are modern day prophets and everyone knows modern day prophets only communicate from wood pulpits, magazine articles, and newsroom websites.

Face to face visits are saved for the Pope fan Boi club.

Even as a member I always thought it was weird how church leaders would never talk to the press or take questions from doubters.

Maybe it was because the missionaries told me that the prophets were living, breathing mouthpieces of God, so I thought they'd actually live up to the hype.

Instead they hide in their bubble and are surrounded by people just trying to run the corporation as best (successfully financially) as they can.

In the scriptures prophets called adulterous leaders to repentance. These days they shake hands with them...

[Arcturus]

So glad you liked it.

The stars really came into alignment for this podcast.

I think it may be the best podcast I've ever done.

(Which may or may not be saying something depending on your point of view.)

Consiglieri - the Greg Prince stuff was awesome at the end. Don't remember if this was stated in the episode, but was that interview audio with Prince before or after Nelson's Jan 2016 devotional where he called the exclusion policy (POX) a revelation? If it was before, that's pretty crazy that Nelson went on record like he did touting POX as a revelation. Or, Nelson could have been unaware of Prince spilling the beans like that in the interview or he could have confidence that Prince's facts weren't right?

I really like Greg Prince and would trust him any day over one of the 15, and I also think Tom Christofferson is truly salt of the earth. Fascinating if that is really how it all went down, with D Todd not knowing anything until it was sprung upon him, this all would make Nelson's comments at that devotional complete fraud. I am so pained every time I hear Nelson or one of his bro's talking about "the mind and will of the Lord." That's some dangerous cult-like rhetoric and I think they know what they're doing in using it.

[blazerb]

Why would the Prophet be afraid of that? He should be chomping at the bit to take on doubters publicly. Elijah was always going toe to toe with King Ahab, Alma and Amulek took Zeezrom on publicly, Jacob bested Sherem, there are all kinds of stories of prophets in the scriptures winning public debates with doubters. He ought to be calling up and asking to be on the show.

Hmmm...wonder why he isn't?

I once had a chance to talk for a while with a guy who used to work for church PR. This occurred a couple decades ago. They set up an interview for RMN. It turned out to be a "gotcha" type interview. It was reported to me that RMN was very angry about the experience. But you ask a good question. Why would he be angry? He had the chance to convert an antagonist like Alma and Amulek with Zeezrom or like JS with the sheriffs sent to arrest him. Or a chance to shut down an enemy like Peter with Simon Magus or Alma with Korihor. When I was more believing, I craved seeing my leaders show God's power. They never did.

[achilles]

Has anybody read the new Greg Prince book?

Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences
https://www.amazon.com/Gay-Rights-Mormo ... op?ie=UTF8

I'm going to read it this weekend, I think.

[MalcolmVillager]

So glad you liked it.

The stars really came into alignment for this podcast.

I think it may be the best podcast I've ever done.

(Which may or may not be saying something depending on your point of view.)

Hard to say C. You have had some winners. This one really goes up with the best. Just shared with DW over dinner.

They are pulling out all the stops to stay relevant.