Miraculous Events- rational explanations

[deacon blues]

In a recent discussion with a NOM friend, I said my explanation of the gold plates was that Joseph most likely had some kind of prop- tin plates, made by him, kept covered with cloth. I think Dan Vogel has also suggested this. My friend blew this off, saying that Joseph never could have made them, or kept other people from discovering such a deception. In retrospect I think critics like myself can find obvious explanations for the bogus translations (BOA, Book of Moses), and revelations (Zion, D&C 87, D&C 132), but dealing with miraculous things such as plates and angels- with multiple (3 and 8) witnesses are something that NOM's put forth as incontestable. Any suggestions?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Didn't he tell his close family and associates they would die if they took a peek? I thought Emma obeyed by only feeling stuff through the cloth cover.

[Red Ryder]

... I thought Emma obeyed by only feeling stuff through the cloth cover.

Ah... Like obeying the law of chastity while dating at BYU!

Deacon, I've had similar conversations with family and friends and I always come back to Star Wars, Harry Potter, and The Lord of the Rings. These stories have just as much intricate details and a better story line compared to the BOM. If these authors could craft such magnificent stories, than Joseph Smith could have too. Especially given the rock in the hat oral narrative approach to the BOM translation.

Then they suggest that the timing was too soon for Joseph to have written or narrated it. I counter with "according to the timeline the church puts forth but what really happened?"

I think the plates were a prop and Joseph knew when he needed to use it and when he didn't. My guess is it was a normal item like a large bible that could be easily thrown under a cloth. Then when he didn't need it, he just removed the cloth and nobody questioned an out of place object like a set of fake tin plates. A "hide in plain sight" strategy.

[jfro18]

... I thought Emma obeyed by only feeling stuff through the cloth cover.

Ah like living the law of chastity while dating at BYU!

A+

[Hagoth]

... dealing with miraculous things such as plates and angels- with multiple (3 and 8) witnesses are something that NOM's put forth as incontestable. Any suggestions?

In what sense are you using the concept of NOM here, Deacon?

[1smartdodog]

If Joseph would have claimed he got an iPad with a book on it that would have been something.

Also I tell people I have little patience for a god who operates in secret. Don’t show the plates to anyone, why?

[deacon blues]

... dealing with miraculous things such as plates and angels- with multiple (3 and 8) witnesses are something that NOM's put forth as incontestable. Any suggestions?

In what sense are you using the concept of NOM here, Deacon?

Sorry, I mixed up TBM and NOM in that sentence. It should say "dealing with miraculous things such as plates and angels- with multiple (3 and 8) winesses are something TBM's put forth as incontestable."

[slavereeno]

I dunno, Mauricio Berger almost pulled it off again, and in the information age to boot.

https://thecauseofzion.org/witness-of-p ... -american/

It doesn't take a miracle of any kind to drum up some witnesses.

[redjay]

I've had similar conversations with family and friends and I always come back to Star Wars, Harry Potter, and The Lord of the Rings. These stories have just as much intricate details and a better story line compared to the BOM. If these authors could craft such magnificent stories, than Joseph Smith could have too. Especially given the rock in the hat oral narrative approach to the BOM translation.

I'm rewatching Game of Thrones starting at season one - I was thinking of the complexity of GoT compared with the BoM, the other day during the opening credits, and I thought that if Martin could do GoT, Joseph could do BoM - though I'm not sure I could have got there with my TBM blinkers on.

[Hagoth]

I dunno, Mauricio Berger almost pulled it off again, and in the information age to boot.

https://thecauseofzion.org/witness-of-p ... -american/

It doesn't take a miracle of any kind to drum up some witnesses.

Yeah, that's pretty amazing. I haven't been following this lately. Do you know if he's still getting the support of some of the US Josephite churches?

[Mormon 8]

None of the 11 witnesses ever testified to seeing the plates with their natural eyes, only their 'spiritual eyes'.

[wtfluff]

None of the 11 witnesses ever testified to seeing the plates with their natural eyes, only their 'spiritual eyes'.

Along with the above quote; "The plates" were never used to create the Book of Mormon that we have today. BoM was created entirely from a magic rock in a (magic?) hat. The plates and the witnesses are completely irrelevant. True believers who actually know the truth about the "translation" should be preaching about how awesome the magic rock is.

[RubinHighlander]

Joseph never could have made them, or kept other people from discovering such a deception.

Kinderhook Plates

Voree Plates

...

[Red Ryder]

None of the 11 witnesses ever testified to seeing the plates with their natural eyes, only their 'spiritual eyes'.

Along with the above quote; "The plates" were never used to create the Book of Mormon that we have today. BoM was created entirely from a magic rock in a (magic?) hat. The plates and the witnesses are completely irrelevant. True believers who actually know the truth about the "translation" should be preaching about how awesome the magic rock is.

If this is true than that means it came from Joseph's mind and voice. This means having to believe that he was truly speaking on behalf of God.

How do we know Joseph was?

Because he said so!

Which creates the Prophetic Loop:

I am the Prophet!
How do we know?
Because I said so!
Start loop again.

This pattern still exists in the current organization.

RMN: I receive prophetic guidance during the night!
Members: how do we know it's true!
RMN: because I'm the prophet
WWN: yeah... Yeah... He's the prophet! I've seen him wake up in the middle of the night and write stuff down! Yeah, yeah, yeah, I leave the room when it happens! Yeah, yeah, he's a prophet... Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!

[jfro18]

Joseph never could have made them, or kept other people from discovering such a deception.

Kinderhook Plates

Voree Plates

...

Yeah anyone who says you couldn't make fake plates has to answer how the Kinderhook plates were not only made during that same timeframe, but actually looked authentic (at the time anyway).

They idea he couldn't have gotten some tin sheets crudely bound together somehow is laughable and goes against the evidence we have.

And the church itself fought against the idea the Kinderhook plates were a fraud until science proved it in the 1980s, so they're not exactly a great judge of what is authentic or not despite having a direct line to God.

[deacon blues]

Joseph never could have made them, or kept other people from discovering such a deception.

Kinderhook Plates

Voree Plates

...

Winner winner chicken dinner. Thanks for a great answer. If it comes up again I will use this.

[RubinHighlander]

Joseph never could have made them, or kept other people from discovering such a deception.

Kinderhook Plates

Voree Plates

...

Winner winner chicken dinner. Thanks for a great answer. If it comes up again I will use this.

And be sure to point out how some of the witnesses of the BOM also witnessed for Strange!

[Palerider]

While doing research early on I came across an account from a current day newspaper in Palmyra, New York, very similar to the one quoted below. The paper and town were celebrating Palmyra's history and made mention of it being the birthplace of Mormonism. In telling about Joseph Smith and the gold plates they related the following story excepting that as I recall, the two men involved were obligated by Joseph to pay a dollar in order to "see" the gold plates under a frock.

After the fraud was exposed, Joseph in good humor and to mitigate the mens' anger at an attempted hoodwink, suggested they take the dollar and all go down to the local tavern for a beer. The two men seemed amenable.

"An anecdote touching this subject used to be related by William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. They were notorious wags, and were intimately acquainted with Smith. They called as his friends at his residence, and strongly importuned him for an inspection of the "golden book," offering to take upon themselves the risk of the death-penalty denounced. Of course, the request could not be complied with; but they were permitted to go to the chest with its owner, and see where the thing was, and observe its shape and size, concealed under a piece of thick canvas. Smith, with his accustomed solemnity of demeanor, positively persisting in his refusal to uncover it, Hussey became impetuous, and (suiting his action to his word) ejaculated, "Egad! I'll see the critter, live or die!" And stripping off the cover, a large tile-brick was exhibited. But Smith's fertile imagination was equal to the emergency. He claimed that his friends had been sold by a trick of his; and "treating" with the customary whisky hospitalities, the affair ended in good-nature..."

Although Hussey and Vandruver were apparently known as "wags" in town, I see no reason to disbelieve their account of viewing the "plates". It seems exactly like the type of thing a couple of mischievous humorists would do to get to the bottom of a rumour.

[Not Buying It]

Anyone who argues that Joseph could not have pulled off such a deception vastly underestimates the gullibility of much of the populace, and is likely underestimating their own gullibility. Mormons often live in the biggest glass house on the block when it comes to gullibility.

[Just This Guy]

Heck, take a look at the deceptions going on today.

Fyrefest
Flat Earth Society
Nigerien Prince needing to store his money. (it wouldn't still be popular if people were not falling for it)
Fake IRS Audit scams
Bernie Madoff
MLM of your choice.

The list is long. Phishing along was a nearly $700 million dollar business in 2017. For all our education, people are still human and can be just as dumb as they have ever been.

If someone claims that there was no way JSj could have hoodwinked people with a fake good plants, just ask them how many people they know have been vistims to phishing scams. Or the latest one going around is calls about loved ones being in a car wreck and needing emergency cash.