Thoughts on Jana Riess podcast on Mormon Land

[MerrieMiss]

My husband listened to an interview with Riess on Mormon Landand wants to discuss it with me. I just finished it and I have mixed feelings/thoughts. While I won't give away my exact age, I'm a very young GenX or very old Millennial (born between 1975-1985) so I fit the demographic she's talking about here.

I usually like Jana Riess's work because I think hers is a sympathetic view toward the less believing/dogmatic and as an active mormon, hers is a voice many TBMs will listen to. However, I found her description of Millennial issues and faith both lacking, and perhaps misleading, although I guess we'll see when I get around to discussing with my husband.

In particular I found her findings on coffee misleading and frustrating. She found that active Millennials have a more relaxed view of keeping the WoW. I can only imagine the reinforcement her data will suggest to TBMS of the idea that people who are not truly active, believing, stalwart (whatever adjective you want to use) are simply lazy or want to sin. I was perfectly happy never drinking coffee or having a mocha flavored ice cream or chocolate candy when I believed the church was true. It was after I broke down the belief claims I saw no reason not to. It's possible that I just don't fit the majority demographic. I also could not relate to the top reasons most women leave the church. Instead, I fit the male demographic more accurately. It wasn't until after I broke down the truth claims of the church I came to a place where I realized not only was it not true, but there was also no role for me and I was invisible.

Reasons women leave the church:
1.I felt judged or misunderstood
2.I could no longer reconcile personal values with the church's
3. Role of women in church
4.I stopped believing there was one true church
5. I did not trust church leaders to be honest about controversial/historical issues

Reasons men leave the church:
1. I stopped believing there was one true church
2.I could no longer reconcile personal values with the church's
3.I did not trust church leaders to be honest about controversial/historical issues
4. I drifted away
5. Lack of historical evidence

I did find it interesting how she stated what we need is a more 50/50 split between more conservative and liberal believers in order to maintain the church and make room for elasticity which is shown in her data among Millennial believers. However, that is definitely not reflected in leadership of any level, most particularly at the top.

All in all, I still find Dehlin's 5 myths on why people leave the church more compelling and accurate, although that my be because it correlates time-wise with my own crisis. Reiss's data is from 2016.

[jfro18]

I read an article from Riess that covered these points and I thought she was actually very fair and sympathetic towards those who leave, and in a subtle way was sending a message to the church that they are going to lose the war if they don't change.

I don't think that upwards of 50% of millennial Mormons drinking coffee is to say they are sinning or that they are leaving because of that... I think it's an illustration that younger members don't have a black and white view of the church that the church *needs* in order to maintain the kind of obedience they've required for so long.

And I read the article a week or so ago and I might be off, but it just seemed like Riess was more telling the church that people aren't leaving because they were offended or wanted to sin, and it's only going to get worse if they don't start listening to those who are walking away and never looking back.

[MerrieMiss]

I agree that Riess is quite fair, and perhaps I should wait and see how things go with my husband, but I don't know that TBMs who hear what she has to say will see it in a "we need to have more nuanced, less black and white thinking" kind of way. More liberal or progressive mormons may get that message, but I think mormons like my in-laws will come away with the reinforced belief that the more nuanced believers are the chaff/tares, a necessary evil at best.

[jfro18]

I agree that Riess is quite fair, and perhaps I should wait and see how things go with my husband, but I don't know that TBMs who hear what she has to say will see it in a "we need to have more nuanced, less black and white thinking" kind of way. More liberal or progressive mormons may get that message, but I think mormons like my in-laws will come away with the reinforced belief that the more nuanced believers are the chaff/tares, a necessary evil at best.

I agree with that 100%. I think my wife, while she has doubled down on the church's truth claims, would admit that the people who has a less literal view are fine and should not just be welcomed but encouraged by the church to stay on their path.

My in-laws however I guarantee would torch that approach if they were talking honestly about it... maybe it's a generational thing or maybe it's just exposure to the issues, but that is a clash that is happening in all parts of the church right now.

[2bizE]

I haven’t listened to the podcast. I did buy her book. It arrived a day or two ago. I’ve just started reading it.

[Hagoth]

I read Peggy Fletcher Stack's article about it in the SL Tribune. The thought that came to my mind was that we should buckle down for a new wave of conference talks reminding us to hold to the iron rod and warning/shaming us about being lulled into sin and complacency by The World, and trampling all over our covenants.

[moksha]

I think Jana is right in pointing to millennials not buying the idea of God being miffed at the coffee plant while the triumvirate of kale, licorice root, and kelp are not even mentioned in terms of worthiness. Some are wondering which of the Brethren might be in the pocket of the Kelp Association. These millennials notice the ever-present scowls of the faces of Oaks and Holland and correlate it with the same look they see on kelp.

[MerrieMiss]

I don't know why I worry about this crap. My discussion with my husband went something like this:

Me: I listened to that podcast. What did you think of it?

Husband: Oh yeah. What did you think?

Me: You recommended it, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Husband: I guess it's interesting Millennials are experiencing church differently. You think the internet something to do with it?

Me: Yes.

Husband: Did I tell you who I saw at Home Depot today?

He's never taken church as seriously as I have. It's probably why I'm out (mentally, anyway) and he's not. I think he's processing stuff, I just don't know that he'll ever care in the same way I do or really understand how I see it. Oh well.

[MalcolmVillager]

I don't know why I worry about this crap. My discussion with my husband went something like this:

Me: I listened to that podcast. What did you think of it?

Husband: Oh yeah. What did you think?

Me: You recommended it, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Husband: I guess it's interesting Millennials are experiencing church differently. You think the internet something to do with it?

Me: Yes.

Husband: Did I tell you who I saw at Home Depot today?

He's never taken church as seriously as I have. It's probably why I'm out (mentally, anyway) and he's not. I think he's processing stuff, I just don't know that he'll ever care in the same way I do or really understand how I see it. Oh well.

Sorry MM. That is frustrating. My DW has been similarly shallow/apathetic but all in the church as well. Recently she has started to get some fire and anger about items that she never really thought about before. I am not sure what it took but I certainly had something to do with it.

As much as she has nearly completely dismantled her testimony about essentially all the history and doctrine (including JS and the BOM) she still doesnt have any desire to change lifestyle. So we are just coasting as non believers with mostly TBM kids, trying to figure out the next move.

It will probably take some shake up before anything further progresses.

Anyway, good luck with the hubs. It is hard to make someone care about breaking down something that is so fundamental to all their lifestyle and community.

[Random]

Gotta love ya, mocksha! You're one of the people here that often makes me laugh.

I think Jana is right in pointing to millennials not buying the idea of God being miffed at the coffee plant while the triumvirate of kale, licorice root, and kelp are not even mentioned in terms of worthiness. Some are wondering which of the Brethren might be in the pocket of the Kelp Association. These millennials notice the ever-present scowls of the faces of Oaks and Holland and correlate it with the same look they see on kelp.