Does truth really matter?

[Red Ryder]

If truth were an elemental fact of survival we would have evolved very different senses than the ones we do have as well as associated processing abilities. That truth is so often inobvious indicates it's low evolutionary strength in the Earth environment.

+1

Perhaps our brains can't handle the truth thus we deceive ourselves with our own version of it. Is it safe to say even our own brains don't think truth matters even if we are trying to convince ourselves it does?

[wtfluff]

Do facts matter? Yes
Does truth matter? No

What's the difference between "truth" and "facts?"

Is there such thing as a "true fact?"

[slavereeno]

Do facts matter? Yes
Does truth matter? No

I take your point here, facts are some form of verifiable information. Truth is the conclusions we draw based on a set of facts. Objectively, however, many if not most of the "truth" are conclusions that, if given more information, could be verified and become facts. Whether or not someone makes conclusions based on their bias is irrelevant to the actual facts that combine to form truths. "Truth" is just a incomplete collection of facts.

My opinion is that truth (or the conclusions we draw from facts) does matter, because too many decisions that affect our lives are made are based on truth.

For example, a flat earther may present the following facts: To the naked eye the horizon looks flat, The government has been caught lying, The bottom of clouds are flat, videos and photos have been faked. The flat earther and I both agree on those "facts" they are verifiable information. The flat earther derives a "Truth" or a conclusion based on those facts that the earth is flat like a disc. I may get the flat earther to agree to some of my facts: That a picture of the earth taken at a particular time is in fact genuine, that from an airplane you can see the curvature of the earth, that things disappear over the horizon when they move fare enough away. I come to a conclusion that the earth is round like a ball. Can we both be correct at the same time? Regardless of my conclusion or his, there is an actual truth about the earth's shape. (Unless you want to go deeper and question reality itself i suppose)

That may be a little black and white and often times the "objective truth" may not be among any of the conclusions we draw from the facts. I will continue, however to be skeptical of "truth" when it is being used as a weapon to extract among other things, the output of my work efforts.

[slavereeno]

Do facts matter? Yes
Does truth matter? No

What's the difference between "truth" and "facts?"

Is there such thing as a "true fact?"

I am reminded of the parable of the elephant and the blind men. (I believe Uctdorf used it, IIRC in a talk once.) While each of the men is dealing with an incomplete set of Facts, they all come up with a different Truth.

[jfro18]

I keep going back to the 2016 election as I read this thread and I do not want to turn this into a political thing but it mirrors Mormonism so much.

So I am much more involved in politics online than Mormonism and in 2016 I would talk with people constantly about how Trump is a con man and his past stances/positions just did not match what he claimed in 2015/16 and I would try to tell conservatives that there were better choices to pick that would more easily beat Hillary to top it.

And it just didn't matter. My dad is a big Trump guy, and I would tell him "No, Trump actually believed XYZ until he decided to seek the nomination and you can see that if you go to ABC website."

My dad would reply "I watched Fox News talk about it and they said that's out of context" or "I hadn't heard that but I know there are a lot of people trying to take Trump down" or "Trump learned through his experiences that he maybe thought wrong early on and now wants to use that experience to help others."

Point is that at no point would he even entertain what I was saying but just constantly deflected in any direction he could. To him he was still operating under truth even as he fought so hard to avoid it.

And the same thing has happened with me and my wife during this. I would tell her about things I'd find online and offer to go over it with her and show her the sources, and she would say no, read an article on FAIR (or some of the even worse apologetic sites) and then call it a day. She knew I could tear that to pieces, but to her she found whatever she needed to avoid the issue.

So I just do not believe truth matters or that facts are relevant anymore. The only way that becomes true is if you concede that truth is flexible and that facts are whatever you want them to be.

Maybe I'm just jaded from watching people through politics and this church, but I just do not believe truth matters anymore unless the people on the other end is actually open to receiving it.

[Red Ryder]

So I just do not believe truth matters or that facts are relevant anymore. The only way that becomes true is if you concede that truth is flexible and that facts are whatever you want them to be.

Maybe I'm just jaded from watching people through politics and this church, but I just do not believe truth matters anymore unless the people on the other end is actually open to receiving it.

This is my conclusion as well.

I am reminded of the parable of the elephant and the blind men. (I believe Uctdorf used it, IIRC in a talk once.) While each of the men is dealing with an incomplete set of Facts, they all come up with a different Truth.

This is a great example.

I'm concluding that as humans truth and fact are whatever we decide they are, and if we don't like specific truths or facts then we allow ourselves to believe or think otherwise so as to be comfortable and survive.

Truth doesn't matter.
Facts maybe?

Where does this leave us as a society/religion/belief system when we are supposed to accommodate half truths and deceptions masked as truth and integrity?

Perhaps the real way to find truth is to question everything and have integrity to follow wherever that leads...

Does integrity matter?

It does to me!

[Reuben]

If truth were an elemental fact of survival we would have evolved very different senses than the ones we do have as well as associated processing abilities. That truth is so often inobvious indicates it's low evolutionary strength in the Earth environment.

+1

Perhaps our brains can't handle the truth thus we deceive ourselves with our own version of it. Is it safe to say even our own brains don't think truth matters even if we are trying to convince ourselves it does?

How do you both explain cognitive dissonance? Humans experience actual emotional pain when their mental models aren't self-consistent. The kicker is that those mental models include memories and impressions of real-world observations, so cognitive dissonance continually pushes us toward more accurate mental models. There's an analogous reward pathway for making correct predictions, too.

Yes, these things can be overridden. Yes, personal motivations always bias our cognition to some extent. Yes, we also experience emotional punishment or reward based on how well we align with our peers. That doesn't change the fact that we're always being nudged toward better accuracy. Heck, we drag our peers with us a bit, too, because they're also motivated to find consensus.

Is anybody here familiar with particle swarm optimization? Humanity is a particle swarm. We drag each other around in the space of mental models, looking not for the most accurate ones, but for the fittest. Applicable truth is always more fit than falsehood - eventually, on average. When enough of us find some truth, the rest of us tend to converge to it... eventually, on average.

I think it's as amazing as hell that we do this. I'm impressed enough that it doesn't bother me too much that we tend to orbit truth rather than really converge to it.

Well, unless I'm on the receiving end of destructive behavior based on falsehoods. Then it sucks.

[slavereeno]

So I just do not believe truth matters or that facts are relevant anymore. The only way that becomes true is if you concede that truth is flexible and that facts are whatever you want them to be.

Maybe I'm just jaded from watching people through politics and this church, but I just do not believe truth matters anymore unless the people on the other end is actually open to receiving it.

I'm concluding that as humans truth and fact are whatever we decide they are, and if we don't like specific truths or facts then we allow ourselves to believe or think otherwise so as to be comfortable and survive.

Ok, I get it and concede that neither truth nor facts matter to many individuals or even entire groups of people for great periods of time. The pursuit of truth can feel exasperating and useless at times. When Galileo was defending the Copernican view of heliocentrism, I am sure he felt this way as he was placed under house arrest. Nevertheless the truth eventually won out. I still think that we should pursue truth, it may not bear fruit in our lifetime or with our loved ones, to jfro's point, but its a worthy pursuit. I am probably all kinds of hypocritical making this my hill to die on, but there you have it.

[jfro18]

Ok, I get it and concede that neither truth nor facts matter to many individuals or even entire groups of people for great periods of time. The pursuit of truth can feel exasperating and useless at times. When Galileo was defending the Copernican view of heliocentrism, I am sure he felt this way as he was placed under house arrest. Nevertheless the truth eventually won out. I still think that we should pursue truth, it may not bear fruit in our lifetime or with our loved ones, to jfro's point, but its a worthy pursuit. I am probably all kinds of hypocritical making this my hill to die on, but there you have it.

I agree with this 100%. Again I'm going back to the 2016 campaign because this is where I really ran into this for the first time in a widespread way, but I had people I was really friendly with that just hated me because I was trying to "out" Trump's issues with Republicans. I got messages from people calling me a "cuck" or "jew" constantly, which was great since I have never been Jewish.

But anyway, it was worth trying even though clearly it had no impact on people. And with the church it's worth sitting down and writing out thoughts about where they are being deceptive and hoping that it helps people who are actually open to seeking out the truth.

It won't happen overnight and it definitely won't happen as quickly as we'd like, but the things that have taken a stand against the church (CES Letter, Ordain Women, Sam Young, John Dehlin, etc) have all impacted both members and the church in their own way. That is something that should empower everyone to want to keep up, because even the Ordain Women movement has forced the church to (slowly) remove some sexism in the temple ceremony which is a good thing even if the church is still a harmful lie.

Im ramlbing here, but I agree with your premise that it's worth fighting for and eventually it will win out. It certainly won't happen as quickly as we'd all like with our families, spouses, etc, but it's still worth the effort (and risk) to me.

[Red Ryder]

Is anybody here familiar with particle swarm optimization? Humanity is a particle swarm. We drag each other around in the space of mental models, looking not for the most accurate ones, but for the fittest. Applicable truth is always more fit than falsehood - eventually, on average. When enough of us find some truth, the rest of us tend to converge to it... eventually, on average.

I'll have to read more about this. I'm familiar with the concept but concede I know nothing about it enough to have a semi intelligent conversation. I'll come back to this in a day or two.

[dogbite]

How do you both explain cognitive dissonance? Humans experience actual emotional pain when their mental models aren't self-consistent. The kicker is that those mental models include memories and impressions of real-world observations, so cognitive dissonance continually pushes us toward more accurate mental models. There's an analogous reward pathway for making correct predictions, too.

I rather disagree. First, humans are terrible observers. Our real world observations gave us flat Earth, earth at the center of everything. Our hyperactive agency detection gives us paredoelia, gods behind the wind, thunder, comets as harbingers. The dissonance doesn't push us to truth, just an explanation we find acceptable.

It's not until we remove humans from measurement that you start to get real world observations with independent use and meaning.

Which circles back to my wealth and education statement. Nutrition, poverty, stress all contribute to changes in the quality of our reasoning. They each cause measutlrable drops in IQ (without getting into the quality of IQ testing).

If your primary information input is what you observe and experience while hungry, stressed and poor, you're unlikely to have significant dissonance in your inputs. Most of the world finds God, magic, ghosts, demons, supernatural, and aliens as acceptable explanations.

[wtfluff]

So... Truth doesn't matter.

Here's a question for those that think truth doesn't matter: Do you want to believe in things which are true?

[dogbite]

Truth is a matter for those with the luxury of examined living. Anyone who comes to NOM does so because of having examined their life.

It has happened at times in history prior to the modern era, in the Hellenistic era, Rome, China, maybe even Babylon. It began again in the Renaissance.

These cultures had writing, strong governance, reasonable levels of peace.

But consider (from https://mentalfloss.com/article/27590/who-reads-books)

• One-third of high school graduates never read another book for the rest of their lives.

• 42 percent of college graduates never read another book after college.

• 80 percent of U.S. families did not buy or read a book last year.

• 70 percent of U.S. adults have not been in a bookstore in the last five years.

• 57 percent of new books are not read to completion.

Where are these people getting facts, theories, ideas. Are they examining their lives?

Mormonism, with its heavy focus on sin and legalism requires examination of your self to some degree. Mormonism has a focus on education that tends to push one into some level of self examination.

Truth can matter, individually, but it doesn't matter inherently in human life generally so far. That may change.

[jfro18]

It really comes down to how you define truth.

Is truth only truth if definitively backed up by facts?

So flat earth is not possible to be truth because we have proof that it's not flat, but who knows if Joseph Smith got a visit in a grove?

So maybe it's not if truth matters, but how we define it? Or how confident we are in that truth?

I think the truth is that Joseph Smith made it all up because the evidence all points to that, but I can't prove it beyond taking someone through the pattern that shows where Joseph got it wrong whenever he made a claim that we can now judge against it.

But even then facts don't matter because people will not acknowledge them if they contradict their belies.

Look at Trump - there's one poll where he hits 50% approval and he tweets it out constantly, but then bashes every other poll as trash because they have him in the upper 30s/lower 40s. And if you point that out to his supporters they say "TELL THAT TO PRESIDENT HILLARY."

And those are concrete numbers and it STILL doesn't matter. So why should we expect believing Mormons to take the time to look at why the apologetics of the Book of Abraham are absolute non-starters?

Again, I am super jaded here... but I just don't think truth matters and while facts *matter* in theory, they don't matter if people are willing to replace them with emotions.

[Red Ryder]

Truth can matter, individually, but it doesn't matter inherently in human life generally so far. That may change.

What do you think will drive that change? People become more educated and tired of the current bullsh#t in society/politics and start to think about stuff and vote with their wallets and feet?

[Red Ryder]

It really comes down to how you define truth.

Is truth only truth if definitively backed up by facts?

So flat earth is not possible to be truth because we have proof that it's not flat, but who knows if Joseph Smith got a visit in a grove?

So maybe it's not if truth matters, but how we define it? Or how confident we are in that truth?

I think the truth is that Joseph Smith made it all up because the evidence all points to that, but I can't prove it beyond taking someone through the pattern that shows where Joseph got it wrong whenever he made a claim that we can now judge against it.

But even then facts don't matter because people will not acknowledge them if they contradict their belies.

{snip}

Again, I am super jaded here... but I just don't think truth matters and while facts *matter* in theory, they don't matter if people are willing to replace them with emotions.

I agree. I'll fall back on my earlier statement that integrity matters. Ironically some people would call me out for a lack of integrity because I haven't walked away from the church considering my lack of belief. I'd argue that my integrity keeps me doing what I'm doing for my family's sake. I hope I'm not damaging my integrity by living on the edge of Mormonism while hoping loved ones figure it out someday.

Reuben - I read up on the Swarm Optimization stuff last night and you make a valid point above. It's interesting that it occurs in nature and creates a pattern that can be systematically recreated through an algorithm. I wonder if anyone has applied that to the stock market and investor behaviors. Thanks for the breadcrumb there. I'm going to keep reading.

[jfro18]

I agree. I'll fall back on my earlier statement that integrity matters. Ironically some people would call me out for a lack of integrity because I haven't walked away from the church considering my lack of belief. I'd argue that my integrity keeps me doing what I'm doing for my family's sake. In hope I'm not damaging my integrity by living on the edge of Mormonism while hoping loved ones figure it out someday.

Reuben - I read up on the Swarm Optimization stuff last night and you make a valid point above. It's interesting that it occurs in nature and creates a pattern that can be systematically recreated through an algorithm. I wonder if anyone has applied that to the stock market and investor behaviors. Thanks for the breadcrumb there. I'm going to keep reading.

I don't know why anyone would question your integrity for being able to keep a foot out of the church and a foot in for your family. That's not an integrity issue - that's just trying to make a tricky situation work as you hope for them to put one foot out with you.

There are definitely algorithms and measures in the stock market for swarm/herd behavior. I have no idea the specifics, but I see those get posted on Twitter sometimes where they measure sentiment and how it changes quickly once a few people switch to the other side of the boat. And a lot of people use that for contrarian indicators such as - if everyone is optimistic about the stock market, they sell because everyone is already all in... and then when everyone says things are falling apart they jump in.

Psychology is crazy and we usually can't help it even when we know it's happening to us.

[Red Ryder]

I don't know why anyone would question your integrity for being able to keep a foot out of the church and a foot in for your family. That's not an integrity issue - that's just trying to make a tricky situation work as you hope for them to put one foot out with you.

The exmo hard liner crowd does this all the time. Especially those who fall fast and hard. I guess it's a personality thing.

[dogbite]

Truth can matter, individually, but it doesn't matter inherently in human life generally so far. That may change.

What do you think will drive that change? People become more educated and tired of the current bullsh#t in society/politics and start to think about stuff and vote with their wallets and feet?

My guess would be the merging of mind and technology in pursuit of economic viability of the individual. But that's heavily influenced by my biases such as my view of the likelihood of the singularity, hard or soft. Assumes that close matching of your worldview and data collection to reality makes you more economically viable and productive. That is not necessarily true in much of our economy today. Consider Pro Sports, entertainment, for example. Disproportionate success and influence for often nearly illiterate world views.

Sociologically, the rise of social institutions replacing the function of religion in diverse societies will contribute but more slowly and less completely. Read Big Gods for more on that. Societies that persist in monolithic religiously based structures will be less economically strong and slower to adapt.

[Linked]

There has been a lot of discussion on the definition of truth in this thread, appropriately.

What about the definition of "matter"?

RR, what do you mean by truth mattering?