Apostasy through the ages.

[deacon blues]

If I understand the LDS worldview correctly, there have been several times in human history when Church membership was 100%, or close to it, anyway. The first years of Adam and Eve's family, the first few years after the flood, not to mention localized situations like the Americas in 34-100 A.D. I have a couple of thoughts. 1. How did this overwhelming influence in these societies dissipate so fast? 2. Wouldn't traces of this Church influence be found more in archaeological discoveries throughout the world?

[Hagoth]

1. How did this overwhelming influence in these societies dissipate so fast?

'Cause Satan.

2. Wouldn't traces of this Church influence be found more in archaeological discoveries throughout the world?

Faithful answer: Satan again.

Apologetic answer: There's plenty of evidence, you're just too stupid to recognize it. You need BYU educated Phds to hold your hand.

[Palerider]

Apologetic answer: There's plenty of evidence, you're just too stupid to recognize it. You need BYU educated Phds to hold your hand.

Just because we haven't found it, doesn't mean it isn't there. Just give it another few thousand years and it will turn up. In the meantime, keep paying your tithing.

[wtfluff]

2. Wouldn't traces of this Church influence be found more in archaeological discoveries throughout the world?

What sort of archaeological evidence would you expect to prove "100% Mormon Population" for short time periods?

[Linked]

1. How did this overwhelming influence in these societies dissipate so fast?

That's what happens when you turn away from god, it goes downhill fast. Righteous Traditions (TM) are completely lost or so mangled that they become unrecognizable. It's nice to have such good examples to scare people into line. Please ignore that culture doesn't work that way.

2. Wouldn't traces of this Church influence be found more in archaeological discoveries throughout the world?

What sort of archaeological evidence would you expect to prove "100% Mormon Population" for short time periods?

Masonic symbols, a lack of tobacco/alcohol/coffee/tea, zero reference to the word "mormon", and lots of white skin.

[deacon blues]

2. Wouldn't traces of this Church influence be found more in archaeological discoveries throughout the world?

What sort of archaeological evidence would you expect to prove "100% Mormon Population" for short time periods?

Evidence of Monotheism, baptism, a single language worldwide for at least a few generations, an absence of conflicting religions for at least a few generations, a book of remembrance hopefully kept on something durable (This was an important book!!!!), a pure and undefiled language (Moses 6:5-6)evidence of a belief in a pre-existence, belief in a Messiah/Son of God, etc.

[wtfluff]

2. Wouldn't traces of this Church influence be found more in archaeological discoveries throughout the world?

What sort of archaeological evidence would you expect to prove "100% Mormon Population" for short time periods?

Evidence of Monotheism, baptism, a single language worldwide for at least a few generations, an absence of conflicting religions for at least a few generations, a book of remembrance hopefully kept on something durable (This was an important book!!!!), a pure and undefiled language (Moses 6:5-6)evidence of a belief in a pre-existence, belief in a Messiah/Son of God, etc.

Interesting. Let me see if I can translate this into language that a fluffy one such as myself can understand: If mormonism were actually what it claims to be, the entirety of human civilization would have evolved completely different than what we have today. Makes sense.

I'd dare say that holds true for every religion us humans have invented.

[deacon blues]

wtFluff, That could been said of Mormonism, and also Inerrant-Bible Christianity. I do believe an argument could be made that Primitive Christianity might not be 100% the way the bible portrays it. Let's say the New Testament got from 60% to 95% of it's story right. One could still maintain that there could be an Eternal God who created the universe in a more naturalistic way, who took the form of the man Jesus, (admittedly in a mystical, unexplainable way) and did many of the things Jesus did, died, was resurrected (again the unexplainable mystery we don't comprehend) and such a person could believe in a nuanced type of Christianity. In fact, this is the idea I'm wrestling with, although I'll confess I can't explain or justify it much better than I have above. If there was a place in the L.D.S. Church for such a nuanced belief, I could consider going back, but the centrally-governed, doctrinally pure model that Salt Lake leaders are trying to peddle will not work for me.

[Palerider]

wtFluff, That could been said of Mormonism, and also Inerrant-Bible Christianity. I do believe an argument could be made that Primitive Christianity might not be 100% the way the bible portrays it. Let's say the New Testament got from 60% to 95% of it's story right. One could still maintain that there could be an Eternal God who created the universe in a more naturalistic way, who took the form of the man Jesus, (admittedly in a mystical, unexplainable way) and did many of the things Jesus did, died, was resurrected (again the unexplainable mystery we don't comprehend) and such a person could believe in a nuanced type of Christianity. In fact, this is the idea I'm wrestling with, although I'll confess I can't explain or justify it much better than I have above. If there was a place in the L.D.S. Church for such a nuanced belief, I could consider going back, but the centrally-governed, doctrinally pure model that Salt Lake leaders are trying to peddle will not work for me.

I'm very close to this.

There was a discussion on Mormondialogue website regarding whether a believing non-mormon could be considered a member of the body of Christ.

Most posters didn't want to go there. It makes them uncomfortable to say that "outside believers" are still "unsaved" for want of a better word.

One of them had no problem considering outside believers as definitely NOT part of the body of Christ. He was very adamant.

I wonder how Russy, Jeffy and Oaks would wordsmith their way around that one....?

To publicly say that all those Christians out there (whom you would like to convert) are not true believers or part of the body of Christ would be a huge offense and would be very detrimental to your cause.

And yet you have to satisfy your own membership that they are unique and special in all the world. Big dilemma!!!

[moksha]

What sort of archaeological evidence would you expect to prove "100% Mormon Population" for short time periods?

Fossilized remains of green Jell-O and fry sauce.

[Corsair]

What sort of archaeological evidence would you expect to prove "100% Mormon Population" for short time periods?

Well, we do have strong evidence for fervent believers promoting this kind of "evidence":

• LDS Book of Mormon Tours
• 2018 book of Mormon Heartland Rours

I have been to Guatemala and Belize with other strong believers. I can highly recommend a tour of Tikal. This is an amazing site with a fantastic story of a people that had a functioning civilization. You will also get to see the site used by "Star Wars" of the Rebel Base on Yavin IV. Seriously, one of Tikal temples was the exterior shot just before the Rebellion launched the X-Wing fighters to destroy the Death Star.

When Book of Mormon literalists visit these places, every square pit in the ground is a candidate for baptismal font. Every temple has the outline of an LDS temple ceremony. An underground food store is for following the prophet with a Year Supply. Anything great and impressive is evidence of an inspired people that were remarkably similar to Mormons. Any reference to human sacrifice or other evil is evidence that they had the truth but fell into apostasy.

Clearly this is not the kind of conclusion that an Mesoamerican anthropologist or archaeologist would proclaim based on the evidence.

[wtfluff]

Any reference to human sacrifice or other evil is evidence that they had the truth but fell into apostasy.

Was the ball court part of the apostasy too?

That was obviously that was a large part of many of those civilizations, yet for some reason not mentioned in their "holy book?"

Visited Tulum fairly recently with family. The tour guide on our bus actually shot down the idea that any of the folks from ancient Mesoamerica came from "Jerusalem." I don't know if it was common practice to do that when she heard of folks from Utah on her bus or not, but I quite enjoyed it. Her statement definitely planted some seeds in at least one semi-believing member of my family.

[2bizE]

Dont forget about the ancient mormon ruin of Stonehenge.

[deacon blues]

Any reference to human sacrifice or other evil is evidence that they had the truth but fell into apostasy.

Was the ball court part of the apostasy too?

That was obviously that was a large part of many of those civilizations, yet for some reason not mentioned in their "holy book?"

Visited Tulum fairly recently with family. The tour guide on our bus actually shot down the idea that any of the folks from ancient Mesoamerica came from "Jerusalem." I don't know if it was common practice to do that when she heard of folks from Utah on her bus or not, but I quite enjoyed it. Her statement definitely planted some seeds in at least one semi-believing member of my family.

The brethren may issue a statement that members wishing to visit Meso-American historical sites should only sign up for LDS approved tours and guides.