Jefferson to Joseph?

[Palerider]

Thinking of comments made on a recent thread regarding Joseph's accumulation of "revealed doctrine" from sources other than God, I happened upon this quote from Thomas Jefferson in a letter discussing religion written to John Adams in 1823.

The foundation for the quote seems to stem from an explanation of "spirit" given by early church father Origen.

Here's Jefferson's statement:

"Jesus tells us that `God is a spirit.' 4. John 24. but without defining what a spirit is. Down to the 3d. century we know that it was still deemed material; but of a lighter subtler matter than our gross bodies. So says Origen."

By comparison we have this from Joseph written in 1843. D&C 131:7

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;"

I think if we had been well educated individuals such as Alexander Campbell, who wrote the critical expose on the BofM and we had been living at the time of Joseph Smith, we would have had so much more context with which to judge his works. Campbell immediately saw the imposition Joseph was performing. He was well studied unlike the average Mormon convert who was just trying to make ends meet and save a little on the side.

Nowadays, members just aren't familiar enough with what was being discussed during that time period to see how little originality exists in Joseph's writings. How unimpressive they really are. And those same members aren't really interested in researching the real story. Kind of sad I think.

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

Thinking of comments made on a recent thread regarding Joseph's accumulation of "revealed doctrine" from sources other than God, I happened upon this quote from Thomas Jefferson in a letter discussing religion written to John Adams in 1823.

The foundation for the quote seems to stem from an explanation of "spirit" given by early church father Origen.

Here's Jefferson's statement:

"Jesus tells us that `God is a spirit.' 4. John 24. but without defining what a spirit is. Down to the 3d. century we know that it was still deemed material; but of a lighter subtler matter than our gross bodies. So says Origen."

By comparison we have this from Joseph written in 1843. D&C 131:7

"There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;"

I think if we had been well educated individuals such as Alexander Campbell, who wrote the critical expose on the BofM and we had been living at the time of Joseph Smith, we would have had so much more context with which to judge his works. Campbell immediately saw the imposition Joseph was performing. He was well studied unlike the average Mormon convert who was just trying to make ends meet and save a little on the side.

Nowadays, members just aren't familiar enough with what was being discussed during that time period to see how little originality exists in Joseph's writings. How unimpressive they really are. And those same members aren't really interested in researching the real story. Kind of sad I think.

Exactly! If we had been schooled in Edinburgh during the Scottish Enlightenment like these immigrant ministers, and well versed in the 18th and 19th century Hopkinsian New Divinity of New England Jonathan Edwards, the BOM theology would be clearly common. But all that stuff has been hidden in time until Google started scanning all these old publications.

[jfro18]

Yet another great find...

Joseph Smith created the ultimate mix-tape using sources available to him, but most people who bought in just didn't know about all of the individual sources so it felt new and inspired to them. Overthinking about it beyond that is almost giving Joseph too much credit.

[Hagoth]

Exactly! If we had been schooled in Edinburgh during the Scottish Enlightenment like these immigrant ministers, and well versed in the 18th and 19th century Hopkinsian New Divinity of New England Jonathan Edwards, the BOM theology would be clearly common. But all that stuff has been hidden in time until Google started scanning all these old publications.

Also, when people look at you like you're crazy for suggesting that Joseph Smith would have had access to information that he appears to have plagiarized they are thinking about it from the perspective of the avalanche of information available to us today. They also underestimate the amount of education even frontier settlers were capable of attaining. The well-educated people in New England who were lucky enough to get a formal education all knew pretty much the same stuff (history, classics, geography, Bible, etc.) and it could all be found in any well-stocked library. They really didn't have that much information to master, compared to today. A college freshman today learns more science in their first semester biology or astronomy class than was known by all of 19th century scholars combined. But you didn't even have to read the books. sitting around the cracker barrel talking about ideas and sharing information was a big part of people's lives before television and internet. A well-connected person with a good memory and access to the many roving book peddlers, and who attended lectures and sermons, could easily get everything needed to write all of the "Joseph couldn't have know that" restoration scripture, as long as they had a good imagination.

[moksha]

I think if we had been well-educated individuals such as Alexander Campbell, who wrote the critical expose on the BofM and we had been living at the time of Joseph Smith, we would have had so much more context with which to judge his works. Campbell immediately saw the imposition Joseph was performing.

So what did Campbell have to say about Joseph's idea?

[FiveFingerMnemonic]

I think if we had been well-educated individuals such as Alexander Campbell, who wrote the critical expose on the BofM and we had been living at the time of Joseph Smith, we would have had so much more context with which to judge his works. Campbell immediately saw the imposition Joseph was performing.

So what did Campbell have to say about Joseph's idea?

http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

[Palerider]

I think if we had been well-educated individuals such as Alexander Campbell, who wrote the critical expose on the BofM and we had been living at the time of Joseph Smith, we would have had so much more context with which to judge his works. Campbell immediately saw the imposition Joseph was performing.

So what did Campbell have to say about Joseph's idea?

http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

I see FiveFingerMnemonic beat me to it.

Campbell didn't address much if anything from the D&C because it hadn't been compiled yet, but he did a nice little treatise on why the BofM is totally phony from a scriptural point of view.

The great thing is that in reading his critique some time after my own disaffection, I found it to confirm precisely many of my own conclusions. Alexander was a smart guy. He had things figured out much quicker than I did.
If you read the critique you may feel free to skip Campbell's synopsis of the BofM plot and just head straight for the meat since you already know the backstory.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/campbell.shtml

[Palerider]

But you didn't even have to read the books. sitting around the cracker barrel talking about ideas and sharing information was a big part of people's lives before television and internet. A well-connected person with a good memory and access to the many roving book peddlers, and who attended lectures and sermons, could easily get everything needed to write all of the "Joseph couldn't have know that" restoration scripture, as long as they had a good imagination.

I think this is critical.

These people had no electronic devices.

But they talked A LOT and discussed A LOT. They had very good memories and were very imaginative. In that day and age you HAD to pay attention.

It reminds me of my grandmother. One time we were sitting at her table, looking out the window and a flock of probably ten or twelve birds flew across the sky. She asked me how many there were and I attempted to count them but couldn't because they were changing position so quickly I couldn't keep track of which I had counted and which I hadn't.

It seemed an impossible task.

She told me there were thirteen birds and then said, "You need to see the entire flock in one instant and see groups of birds within the flock at one time. Then you just add them together in your head." I was astounded she could do it. She told me she had been taught by her father while working on a cattle ranch because her job was to count cows while they moved as a herd and the count had to be accurate.

Most people nowadays wouldn't have a clue how to do what she did. It would seem almost.....miraculous??