Joseph Fielding Smith vs. Gordon B. Hinkley

[Hagoth]

In his infamous "TK Smoothie" statement, Joseph Fielding Smith said,

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be—neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:288)

Yet the Proclamation to the World (for which the eagerly awaiting world rejoiced) says:

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Neither of these proclamations is prefaced with a "thus saith the Lord," so who's speaking as a man here? And how do we know?

[Rob4Hope]

And a wrench in the cogs of the gears:

In NDE literature, reincarnation is profusely discussed, across all cultures INCLUDING Christian, and all geographical and ethnic boundaries. And, a common thread is you get to come back as male in one life, female in the next, and so forth. Why?....because experience and learning is that important.

Does it make sense, therefore, that perhaps someone likes one gender over the other, and therefore comes back asn transvestite, or having other desires/feelings?

The Proclamation is quite revolutionary in scope, and not based in that much LDS theology, which was pretty silent on the idea of gender being eternal. JFS certainly didn't teach it as you have shown.

[2bizE]

Joseph Fielding Smith was one of the most self-serving, self-righteous, crazy old hoots I never knew.
With all the falseities he spewed for so many years, I really think he was just trying to live up the Smith name and make a name for himself. I think people thought he should be as much a prophet as his uncle Joseph, and he tried making up crap to live up to that expectation.
Is there actually anything worthwhile that he ever said?
My favorite was when he said man would never make it to the moon, then a few years later man did. Then he professed speaking as a man.

[Hagoth]

Is there actually anything worthwhile that he ever said?

Well, he explained that nagging problem about how dinosaur bones could be older than the earth.

[sunstoned]

Joseph Fielding Smith's Man, His Origin and Destiny, is a prime example of him trying to put forth new doctrine, but coming across as just loonie.

[deacon blues]

And a wrench in the cogs of the gears:

In NDE literature, reincarnation is profusely discussed, across all cultures INCLUDING Christian, and all geographical and ethnic boundaries. And, a common thread is you get to come back as male in one life, female in the next, and so forth. Why?....because experience and learning is that important.

Does it make sense, therefore, that perhaps someone likes one gender over the other, and therefore comes back asn transvestite, or having other desires/feelings?

The Proclamation is quite revolutionary in scope, and not based in that much LDS theology, which was pretty silent on the idea of gender being eternal. JFS certainly didn't teach it as you have shown.

I haven't heard much about reincarnation in a Christian context. Are there any good books or references?

[alas]

And a wrench in the cogs of the gears:

In NDE literature, reincarnation is profusely discussed, across all cultures INCLUDING Christian, and all geographical and ethnic boundaries. And, a common thread is you get to come back as male in one life, female in the next, and so forth. Why?....because experience and learning is that important.

Does it make sense, therefore, that perhaps someone likes one gender over the other, and therefore comes back asn transvestite, or having other desires/feelings?

The Proclamation is quite revolutionary in scope, and not based in that much LDS theology, which was pretty silent on the idea of gender being eternal. JFS certainly didn't teach it as you have shown.

I haven't heard much about reincarnation in a Christian context. Are there any good books or references?

Christianity believed in reincarnation up until the time of the Roman emperor Constantine in about 300 ad. He felt he had been so wicked that for sure he would come back as something he didn’t want to be, so he ordered the church to change the doctrine. Poof, problem solved and he wasn’t coming back as a worm, or worse as a slave. Being emperor has its perks. You can change the truth.

I always thought it was interesting that Joseph didn’t restore reincarnation and some of the other stuff changed at the council at Nicee. He only restored what his limited education knew about. I knew about some of this stuff as a kid because it turned out both my parents were closet unbelievers.

In the Bible, Jesus’s followers ask him, “who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” In order for this man to have sinned and then born blind, he had to have sinned in a previous life. Reincarnation. But Jesus didn’t say that he had never had a previous life, just that sin in a previous life was not the reason he was born blind. So, Jesus did not dispute reincarnation, only Karma. There are other cases in the NT Bible that show a belief in reincarnation, such as where Jesus asks, “Who do men say that I am?” And his disciples name some dead prophets. That shows a belief in reincarnation was prevalent in the culture in Jesus’s time. Again Jesus did not teach against reincarnation, just taught that he was the Savior. You would think that if reincarnation was wrong, Jesus would have corrected that idea in his followers, but he didn’t say a word against it.

[Rob4Hope]

And a wrench in the cogs of the gears:

In NDE literature, reincarnation is profusely discussed, across all cultures INCLUDING Christian, and all geographical and ethnic boundaries. And, a common thread is you get to come back as male in one life, female in the next, and so forth. Why?....because experience and learning is that important.

Does it make sense, therefore, that perhaps someone likes one gender over the other, and therefore comes back asn transvestite, or having other desires/feelings?

The Proclamation is quite revolutionary in scope, and not based in that much LDS theology, which was pretty silent on the idea of gender being eternal. JFS certainly didn't teach it as you have shown.

I haven't heard much about reincarnation in a Christian context. Are there any good books or references?

Most of the books I've read have people who originally identified as Christian (or something else), and then had their belief systems radically changed. Some continue to worship with congregations, but they don't subscribe to the beliefs...they just want to join with others in trying to build hope and peace in the world.

I don't have any specific sources as in "Christians for Reincarnation" (fictitious title), or anything like that. The list of my books include (not in any order), but are not limited to the following:

1. Time to Believe by TJ Owen
2. The Self Does Not Die by Titus Rivas (THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ONE!!!!)
3. Near Death in the ICU by Laurin Bellg
4. Gaze Into Heaven by Marlene Bateman Sullivan (this is the LDS one. Where Joseph Smith is allegedly resurrected. Lets exhume the bones and see for sure!!!).
5. NDEs -- 10 Fascinating Facts by Wayne Pundin
6. Near Death and the Afterlife by Dr. Mark Pederson (this one is weird)
7. Visions of Glory by John Pontius (OK...yeh,..I bought it. So what?)
8. A Greater Tomorrow by Julie Rowe (See above.....lol)

These are kindles.

Some of the Hard Cover ones:
1. Return from Tomorrow by George Ritchie
2. Life After Life by Raymond Moody
3. the Afterlife of Billy Fingers by Annie Kagan
4. ...there was another Raymond Moody book...can't remember right off.
5. The Burning Within by Ranae Wallace (who is a personal friend)
6. Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander
7. Map of Heaven ... by Eben Alexander
8. Doctors and Near-Death Experiences by Jenniffer Weigel (entertaining,...very)
9. Near Death Experirences: The Rest of the Story... by P M H Atwater
10. Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near Death Experiences by Jeffrey Long and Paul Perry (convincing book here).
11. to heaven and Back ... by Dr. Mary C. Neal


I've done hours and hours of GOOGLE reading. I also subscribed to the IANDS organization and have the 2015 conference lectures.

PS. didn't Eliza R. Snow believe in reincarnation?

There is a big problem with reincarnation and resurrection. Guys like Bruce McConkie would burn you in oil for heresy if you tried to argue for reincarnation and discount resurrection.

[Just This Guy]

In his infamous "TK Smoothie" statement, Joseph Fielding Smith said,

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be—neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:288)

Yet the Proclamation to the World (for which the eagerly awaiting world rejoiced) says:

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Neither of these proclamations is prefaced with a "thus saith the Lord," so who's speaking as a man here? And how do we know?

Easy. The more modern one is the right one. You always take the older version and cast it under the bus when a newer statement comes along.

[Thoughtful]

And a wrench in the cogs of the gears:

In NDE literature, reincarnation is profusely discussed, across all cultures INCLUDING Christian, and all geographical and ethnic boundaries. And, a common thread is you get to come back as male in one life, female in the next, and so forth. Why?....because experience and learning is that important.

Does it make sense, therefore, that perhaps someone likes one gender over the other, and therefore comes back asn transvestite, or having other desires/feelings?

The Proclamation is quite revolutionary in scope, and not based in that much LDS theology, which was pretty silent on the idea of gender being eternal. JFS certainly didn't teach it as you have shown.

I haven't heard much about reincarnation in a Christian context. Are there any good books or references?

Most of the books I've read have people who originally identified as Christian (or something else), and then had their belief systems radically changed. Some continue to worship with congregations, but they don't subscribe to the beliefs...they just want to join with others in trying to build hope and peace in the world.

I don't have any specific sources as in "Christians for Reincarnation" (fictitious title), or anything like that. The list of my books include (not in any order), but are not limited to the following:

1. Time to Believe by TJ Owen
2. The Self Does Not Die by Titus Rivas (THIS IS AN IMPORTANT ONE!!!!)
3. Near Death in the ICU by Laurin Bellg
4. Gaze Into Heaven by Marlene Bateman Sullivan (this is the LDS one. Where Joseph Smith is allegedly resurrected. Lets exhume the bones and see for sure!!!).
5. NDEs -- 10 Fascinating Facts by Wayne Pundin
6. Near Death and the Afterlife by Dr. Mark Pederson (this one is weird)
7. Visions of Glory by John Pontius (OK...yeh,..I bought it. So what?)
8. A Greater Tomorrow by Julie Rowe (See above.....lol)

These are kindles.

Some of the Hard Cover ones:
1. Return from Tomorrow by George Ritchie
2. Life After Life by Raymond Moody
3. the Afterlife of Billy Fingers by Annie Kagan
4. ...there was another Raymond Moody book...can't remember right off.
5. The Burning Within by Ranae Wallace (who is a personal friend)
6. Proof of Heaven by Eben Alexander
7. Map of Heaven ... by Eben Alexander
8. Doctors and Near-Death Experiences by Jenniffer Weigel (entertaining,...very)
9. Near Death Experirences: The Rest of the Story... by P M H Atwater
10. Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near Death Experiences by Jeffrey Long and Paul Perry (convincing book here).
11. to heaven and Back ... by Dr. Mary C. Neal


I've done hours and hours of GOOGLE reading. I also subscribed to the IANDS organization and have the 2015 conference lectures.

PS. didn't Eliza R. Snow believe in reincarnation?

There is a big problem with reincarnation and resurrection. Guys like Bruce McConkie would burn you in oil for heresy if you tried to argue for reincarnation and discount resurrection.

Is Mary Neal the doctor who was in the kayaking accident or similar?

[Rob4Hope]

Is Mary Neal the doctor who was in the kayaking accident or similar?

Yep. That is her if I recollect.

PS. No intent to hijack the thread. Just that from multiple angles, both JFS and GBH are contradicted. Not only do they disagree between themselves, but there are also pseudo-religious topics out there that counter them both.

[deacon blues]

Wow, what a reading list ! I've read a couple of the older books: Moody, Ritchie. But at my speed and the direction of my other reading, I won't get to them until the next life. Are there libraries in the After-life?

[Palerider]

Wow, what a reading list ! I've read a couple of the older books: Moody, Ritchie. But at my speed and the direction of my other reading, I won't get to them until the next life. Are there libraries in the After-life?

No libraries per se. Just a white stone that gives access to all the secrets of the universe.

[Palerider]

In his infamous "TK Smoothie" statement, Joseph Fielding Smith said,

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be—neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection. (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:288)

Yet the Proclamation to the World (for which the eagerly awaiting world rejoiced) says:

Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose.

Neither of these proclamations is prefaced with a "thus saith the Lord," so who's speaking as a man here? And how do we know?

I always understood JFS's explanation to be more one of function rather than actual body modification.

A terrestrial or telestial resurrected being would still retain all physical characteristics of gender but those parts would be non-functional. Kind of like an evolutionary remnant that no longer serves a purpose. An eternal case of ED. Non-functioning ovaries in the case of females.

So I don't see GBH and JFS as being in disagreement technically. Just wrong as far as claiming to know what the bodily functions of resurrected beings are generally.

[moksha]

Imagine the excitement around the Joseph F. Smith household if he got his DNA information back from Ancestry.com and it listed him as being 7.8% Sub-Saharan African? He would feel compelled to seal himself as his own servant.

"Why I say, JF, could you fetch me a tonic and branch water?"
"Yowsa Massa Smith. Come on feet and do yo thang!"

Hopefully, President Hinckley could tell him those bits and flecks of institutional racism which JF clung to were all nonsense.

[slavereeno]

The list of my books include (not in any order), but are not limited to the following:
(...)
I've done hours and hours of GOOGLE reading. I also subscribed to the IANDS organization and have the 2015 conference lectures.

DW asked me a question the other day when she and I were discussing NDEs and I said I would post here because some of the people here have done more research than I will have time to do for a while.

Her question is: Have there been accounts of people who were "bad" experiencing an NDE and then having a change of heart and living a more harmonious life.

As in some violent criminal that has an NDE then decides he should change his ways? Or are the experiences all from people who were already religious and/or good natured?

[Rob4Hope]

The list of my books include (not in any order), but are not limited to the following:
(...)
I've done hours and hours of GOOGLE reading. I also subscribed to the IANDS organization and have the 2015 conference lectures.

DW asked me a question the other day when she and I were discussing NDEs and I said I would post here because some of the people here have done more research than I will have time to do for a while.

Her question is: Have there been accounts of people who were "bad" experiencing an NDE and then having a change of heart and living a more harmonious life.

As in some violent criminal that has an NDE then decides he should change his ways? Or are the experiences all from people who were already religious and/or good natured?

ALL OF THEM CHANGE THEIR LIVES.....

NDEs are massive eye-opening experiencing events for people. Those who go to hell (and some do) all come back and want to make changes for the better. Love and kindness appear to be currency in that realm. And those who lack it see how much they have wasted their lives...

[slavereeno]

ALL OF THEM CHANGE THEIR LIVES.....

NDEs are massive eye-opening experiencing events for people. Those who go to hell (and some do) all come back and want to make changes for the better. Love and kindness appear to be currency in that realm. And those who lack it see how much they have wasted their lives...

Perfect! Thanks!